Master/Apprentice

[Warren Okuma]

All the more reason for there to be some kind of adequate skill benchmark system. A blacksmith currently does need to be of a certain level to take an apprentice; typically a craftsman can't take an apprentice until he has acheived mastery in his craft. Journeymen do most of the real work most people see, but generally guild rules won't let you apprentice someone to yourself unless you're a master yourself.

About the only real skill benchmarking system I know of is in Mutants and Masterminds. There, 1-4 ranks is basic, 5-8 is a professional, 9-12 is an expert or master, and 13-15 is a true 'wizard'. Someone with 16+ is a legend. So, I'd say someone with 10 ranks is qualified to take an apprentice. That means 7th level Expert for the Master Blacksmith in the Big Town, since that's the earliest he can get 10 ranks - Skill focus and all that mean nothing since they just add to the bonus, not the number of ranks. You don't 'apprentice' kids to Old Fred the village horseshoe maker, not unless you want them to be scullions for the rest of their lives.

Me like. Okay, my ruling would be that professionals can teach, so you need a level 5 skill like Spellcraft. If you have lots of mid level dudes running around, call it rank 9. If you want to teach a bunch of students take Profession: Teacher.

 

[WayneLigon]

In what sense do skill focus and stat bonuses mean "nothing"? Characters in the game world aren't able to see other people's character sheets. There is no way they could tell someone with 10 ranks from someone with 4 ranks, skill focus, and high Int, on the basis of their craftsmanship.

Someone can indeed tell the work of a real master from the work of a talented but lesser-trained person. Unfortunately for the purposes of that, the game isn't (and probably shouldn't be) sufficiently 'fine grained' enough to make that distinction. Otherwise, we'd have rules for actual strength and quality of weapons on a sliding scale determined by the quality of materials, quality of workshop, quality of the help, etc -- all of that would be really realistic but add very little to actual play).

It means nothing in the same way the qualifying for a prestige class depends on ranks and not bonuses. The game doesn't - and should - distinguish between them for die rolls but there needs to be some form of saying 'I have sufficient training and grounding in a skill, not just raw talent and luck on my side'. There's a great deal of difference between the two. Again, it's something the game system needs on a 'meta' level while at the same time it makes not a hill of beans worth of difference to gameplay.

I'm just saying that using the ranks is about as good a means as we have for a good rule-of-thumb measurement of a craftsman's or professional's actual worth.

 

[Slife]

IIRC, there are a couple of feats for that in the DMG II. I think the cutoff is around level six for being a master/apprentice - above it you don't have to fulfill the duties of an apprentice (but you still keep the bonuses) and below it you can't be a master.