Matrix Revolutions SPOILER filled discussion [and my review]

[Ashrem Bayle]

Hmm I don't remember the coversation at the end completely anymore but I remember thinking two things: the Oracle had negotiated for all of the exiled programs to be left alone, i.e. don't need to be smuggled around anymore. And that yes, humans could be allowed to leave the matrix, but not that they would be let go en masse or anything like that. So essentially, very little has changed for humanity...

We don't know the extent of that though. I got the impression that if a human wanted out, he would be set free. Now, whats to stop all the people from Zion from jacking in and going public about the truth of the Matrix? Then everyone gets to decide.


One thing some people are forgetting (or didn't know) is that the machines never wanted war in the first place. According to the Animatrix (Second Renessiance), the machines where attacked by the humans first in an act of hate (racism?) and the war began as the machines tried to defend themselves.

Since they never really wanted the war in the first place, it is not surprising that they would agree to peace.

 

[RangerWickett]

I was sitting at Waffle House last night with two of my friends, discussing the movie after we got out. I espouse that the ending is weakly written with lots of plot holes. My friend Dave believes in the Matrix within the Matrix theory. My other friend Neil is moderating.

Eventually, while examining Dave's idea for any sort of logical support, we propose that 'The Matrix' where everyone exists normally is a standard computer virtual reality world, and that 'The Real World' is actually a sort of pocket dimension, coded with its own rules so that people who leave the first Matrix think they're in the real world, and not in a simulation. This was Dave's way of explaining why The Matrix is all green-coded (which Neo can see), but The Real World has no code that Neo sees, except for the yellow energy of the machines.

I asked why, if both worlds are matrices, would Neo be able to use all his super powers in The Matrix early on, but have very little power in The Real World. At this point, Neil steps in and says, "It's like the Green Lantern. Neo is Hal Jordan, and the 'real world' matrix is yellow, so he has no power over it!"

Ah, it all makes sense now. The Matrix Trilogy is an allegory for the Green Lantern comics.

 

[KChagga]

My main problem with the movie is that the idea was to free the people in the matrix. At least that was the point of the first movie.
At the end of Revolutions we have the Architect saying that those who want to be free will be set free.
The problem is these people are firmly entrenched in the matrix. They dont know that there is a freedom to be had. There aren't that many people who disbelieve the illusion of the matrix. This means that 99.5%(my guesstimate) of the human population will stay in the matrix.

People are still slaves.

The people are not free.

Let's look at the people who are free. The people in Zion. OK now they aren't at war with the machines. They live in a cave deep in the center of the earth. I don't believe it would be possible for them to live anywhere on the surface anymore. Even if they could they would be hiding out amongst the machines. They would have to live as the cockroaches of the enslaving machine race's society.

This is not freedom either.

These people are prisoners.

The main objective of the original movie is never met. It's not even moved towards(at least the way I see it). We are in almost exactly the same position that the movies started at. The conflict is not resolved.
The machines didnt even have to be beaten to make a significant conclusion.
Here is my version of how the end of the movie should have went.
Neo is jacked into the machine god directly. Neo uses his odd ability to destroy machines on the machine god. Being directly jacked into the machine god allows him to have a huge struggle with the machine god. Cue awesome special effects metaphysical mind battle here. Somehow Neo wins and the machine god is destroyed. Maybe well say this permanently damages the machines systems. Without their leader all of the machines are now directionless. The machines begin working as individual rather than a hive. Now humanity has a chance to fight back. Now people have not won the war, but they have the hope to be able to do so. You could still have the fight with Smith if you wanted, but that was really unnecessary to the plot of saving the people.

Back to the other stuff. With the people who want to be free being set free. Look at it this way do you really think there is anything that the rebels could do that would make anyone more than what they already were doing disbelieve the matrix. Think about if somehow walked up to you and told you that reality wasn't real and that everything you believe in doesn't exist, do YOU believe them. Of course not. Even if you see people doing unbelievable things you will just think that you are hallucinating or some such.
Well thats enough for now.
I did enjoy the movie, I just was really disappointed with the ending.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

The problem is these people are firmly entrenched in the matrix. They dont know that there is a freedom to be had.

Why not? We don't know what happens after Revolutions but it is easy to imagine that the people of Zion, and maybe even the machines themselves, could show everyone that reality is just a construct.

They want proof? It shouldn't be too hard for the Matrix itself to give them proof. Not to mention the fact that the humans are now free to unplug whoever they want.

You: Reality is a computer program? Yea. Right. Sure it is.
Me: It is.
You: Prove it.
Me: Ok. *unplugs you*
You: *waking up in pod* Ah!!

Not to mention all the people popping in and out of the Matrix all the time. If they don't have to do it secretly, everyone would know about it in no time. Heck, they could even televise it!!

The little speech that Neo gave at the end of the first Matrix movie came true. Everyone will get a chance to see "reality" for themselves and they will be able to, if they so choose, live in a word without boundries.

We don't see this happen, but to borrow a line from Smith, it is inevitable.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

My main problem with the movie is that the idea was to free the people in the matrix. At least that was the point of the first movie.

I agree to a point...but the thing is, by the time of Revolutions, we've learned that there is a LOT more going on than what Morpheous thought at the first movie. Things have changed, and goals had to be changed.

Have to say it, but I loved this movie. For me at least, it answered ALL questions. It all makes sense to me, and I think that's great. It just didn't spell out everything, and you have to think about a lot of it.

As for the Neo-Smith thing. No, the Source didn't actually destroy Smiths, but he 'activated' Neo. Smith is a Virus...Neo is the anti-virus. He went through, and destroyed the virus in the system.

 

[Kesh]

Yeah, this ending was better than the way Morpheus intended. If Morpheus had his way, it would've meant the annihilation of the machines.

Where would that leave us? The survivors of Zion, and several million 'pod people' on a dead world with no sunlight. Yeah, that's a good formula for survival.

This way, the awakened humans and machines can work together to build a new, joint society & try to repair the damage done to the planet during the war.

There's going to be people who want out when they learn the truth. There's going to be people who don't want out. There's going to be people who want out, see the real world, and want right back in again. And there's going to be people who go stark raving mad when faced with the truth.

The ones who stay in have a few advantages. Combine the Matrix with Zion's training techniques, and you've got people who can download a PhD to their brain in a matter of hours.

Of course, some zones of the Matrix would have to be set aside for the new wave of troublemakers zipping around in bullet-time and causing trouble for everyone else. Zion-trained police forces to deal with them, working alongside Agents.

... I'm babbling. Sorry.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Yeah, this ending was better than the way Morpheus intended. If Of course, some zones of the Matrix would have to be set aside for the new wave of troublemakers zipping around in bullet-time and causing trouble for everyone else. Zion-trained police forces to deal with them, working alongside Agents.

... I'm babbling. Sorry.

Actually, I think you've just taken a good guess at what the MMORPG is going to be about.

Think about it - if humans and the machines co-exist, suddenly the bad guys become 'rogue programs' like the Merovingian, for example. His purpose is to be a person who knows everything and only gives out what he wants, so he's an obstacle to people getting what they want. In a MMORPG, that's what you need. Obstacles that can be overcome in a certain way, but remain there anyway.

 

[Kai Lord]

Chain Lightning said:

Other stuff: the unclear resolution to Smith. One of you mentioned that Neo allowed himself to be assimulated so he can then self-distruct and kill ALL Smiths. Yes, I can see how the seen can be interpreted like that, but how can we be for sure? Where's the evidence in the film of that move?

We know from the films that when Smith assimilates a human, his mind replaces the mind of the human that's plugged in (like with Bane). Right after Smith assimilates Neo, we see the Neo/Smith smile at the Oracle/Smith but then suddenly the Machine God starts pumping loads of power through the cables plugged into Neo's body.

Smith's mind can't handle the power of the Source and is destroyed. Since all Smiths are interconnected, the Source is able to start a chain reaction and destroy every one of them.

This completely caught Smith off guard, since he had assumed the entire time they were fighting in the rain that Neo was just plugged into a chair on a hovercraft somewhere which would have made them exact equals and polar opposites of each other, or very close to it.

But to Smith Neo cheated by jacking into the unlimited power of the Source ("What? That's not fair!") which caused Smith to be destroyed.

How Neo blew up Smith in the original was quite ambiguous, how he did it in Revolutions was actually pretty well explained on film.

 

[Tom Cashel]

His purpose is to be a person who knows everything and only gives out what he wants, so he's an obstacle to people getting what they want.

...like Donald Rumsfeld? Ba-doom-tishhhh!

Hey folks (and this isn't directed at Tallarn)--the thread title says SPOILERS, not FAN FICTION. Every time I see the phrase "If I'd written this movie..." I bloop right over it.

Otherwise, these Matrix threads are pretty funny. The "But Nobody Won the War"/"They Dropped the Philosophical Ball" dichotomy is downright hilarious.

Edited to add, I liked it all right. The flick, that is. Like Neo, it served its purpose.

 

[Chain Lightning]

We know from the films that when Smith assimilates a human, his mind replaces the mind of the human that's plugged in (like with Bane). Right after Smith assimilates Neo, we see the Neo/Smith smile at the Oracle/Smith but then suddenly the Machine God starts pumping loads of power through the cables plugged into Neo's body.

Smith's mind can't handle the power of the Source and is destroyed. Since all Smiths are interconnected, the Source is able to start a chain reaction and destroy every one of them.

This completely caught Smith off guard, since he had assumed the entire time they were fighting in the rain that Neo was just plugged into a chair on a hovercraft somewhere which would have made them exact equals and polar opposites of each other, or very close to it.

But to Smith Neo cheated by jacking into the unlimited power of the Source ("What? That's not fair!") which caused Smith to be destroyed.

How Neo blew up Smith in the original was quite ambiguous, how he did it in Revolutions was actually pretty well explained on film.

You know, that's what I came away from the movie thinking too. That was also my interpretation of the scene. But I guess I was hasty to label the scene as unclearly told because so many others on the boards were walking away with these varying versions. One guy said Neo self destructed. I was like, "What? He did? I thought the machine leader guy pumped all the energy into him to make him explode."

So, if you and I have the same conclusion, what does that mean? Does it mean that our version is most likely the correct interpretation? Or we just so happen to be two guys that have the same incorrect interpretation?

Hopefully, no one will walk in on my post and reply, "but that's what's beautiful about the films, you are left to wonder and figure things out for yourself". Now, while I believe a film shouldn't treat their audiences like dumbies, there is a balance when it comes to storytelling. If you go to far and be abstract too much, you end up like David Lynch. Who's to say what is left up to us and what was simply poorly told? The arguement that it is neat to leave it up to the viewer is okay on certian types of story formula, but it can't be used to excuse every bit of sloppy filming.

(Sort of Off Topic: It used to be neat that the guy at McDonald's filled my cup for me, no I gotta do it.....)

Okay, we agree on the resolution of Smith. I don't what these other crackpots are thinking....but I think you and I are right. Heh heh heh.

I still think its the weakest of the three films. There wasn't enough drama or emotion to feel like a climatic ending to a trilogy. Dialogue was still bad and the ending was still very uninteresting artistically. Odd, considering the style of the whole trilogy is the visual style. That being so, the visual style of the ending scenes were the most boring and un-artistic.