D&D General Matt Colville: "50 years later we're still arguing about what D&D even is!"

For me, we use the rules of an RPG to build a game that is idiosyncratic to that table at that time and virtually impossible to reproduce.

[...]

But, RPG's aren't like that. The starting points and ending points are undefined. The starting point is defined by the table and has so many different variables that it's nearly impossible to claim that my group, your group and their group are playing the same game.
I find that take a bit too extreme, mostly because I don't particularly want to do at the table design work and would like someone to put a lot more effort into designing an elaborate system for me to play with.

My preferred take is to drive the RPG as a game with player determined victory/failure evaluation conditions and unbounded playtime that allows for new victory conditions to be established over previous ones have been achieved. "Role-playing" is whatever idiosyncratic process each game has through genre, tone theme and so forth that players use to set those conditions.
 

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I find that take a bit too extreme, mostly because I don't particularly want to do at the table design work and would like someone to put a lot more effort into designing an elaborate system for me to play with.

My preferred take is to drive the RPG as a game with player determined victory/failure evaluation conditions and unbounded playtime that allows for new victory conditions to be established over previous ones have been achieved. "Role-playing" is whatever idiosyncratic process each game has through genre, tone theme and so forth that players use to set those conditions.
I may be wrong, but I don't think @Hussar was advocating design on the GM's part, just noting that every table in unique enough that what we call the "game" varies table to table.
 

I may be wrong, but I don't think [emoji638][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]]]]@Hussar was advocating design on the GM's part, just noting that every table in unique enough that what we call the "game" varies table to table.

Yes. Exactly. When the table builds a campaign - whether it’s done by one person or more, before play or during, the point is, you can’t actually just play an rpg.

Not like you play a game.
 

Basic synopsis: early (pre-Advanced) D&D was not so much a game as a bunch of ideas, not including such basic things as actually telling you how to play the game.

The little books did not tell you how to play.

The point of Matt's video is that in the period covered, variation was even larger than that because the D&D books did not tell you how to play the game.
I am by no means trying to pick on @jasper and @Staffan, who I understand are just reporting what Matt said in the video, but this was the one thing I really took issue with in Matt's video, so I want to push back on it. As I recall, in the video he even goes as far as to call original D&D "incomplete," and "not a full game."

IMO, that is not the case at all. If you look back, there are things (most notably Initiative) missing that are considered as a matter-of-course in D&D, but the book explains how to play, including an example of play that is very clearly the essential gameplay loop of RPGs (GM describes surroundings/what happens, players say what they will do, GM adjudicates/resolves the actions). There is a point where Matt reads from Arduin Grimoire, where it explains wilderness travel and wandering monster encounters, as if it is some great revelation. Everything he read is in the original rules.

D&D was a complete game. It described how to play clearly enough that it was a commercial success, and people across the country were playing it essentially the same. Yes, absolutely, there were immediately big differences in play styles, but everyone was following the same gameplay loop described in the original D&D booklets. I would further argue that this was not because of how the rules were presented. Differences in playstyles persisted even with people who came to the game from AD&D with its excessive comprehensiveness, and Basic D&D with its tightly constrained ruleset.

What D&D was not was a closed game. It was, by intention, entirely open outside the essential gameplay loop, with even the rules that were included in the original books called out as being essentially suggestions and handy heuristics, to be used or ignored by the Referee as he saw fit. The wildly varying playstyles was by design.

Finally, I'm not particularly a fan of AD&D (B/X is more my speed), but people want to ascribe all these intentions to its publication. It was Gary trying to leash the storm he'd released. Or it was Gary trying to cut Arneson out of royalties. Or both! I would respectfully submit that it was published in response to market demand. The PHB and MM are straightforward compilations and clean-up of the rules that had accrued in supplements and magazines since the publication of the original books. The DMG is filled with all these fiddly rules because people wanted those fiddly rules, and other people/companies were eager to provide them. I'm sure Gary hoped that AD&D would keep people buying TSR stuff, who might otherwise go elsewhere. I'm sure Gary relished the idea of reaping royalties from three new official books that had only his name on them. But those were not the reasons that AD&D was written and published.
 

D&D was a complete game. It described how to play clearly enough that it was a commercial success
My understanding of OD&D has always been that the rules (probably) make mostly sense IF you're a wargamer, and have Chainmail handy. If you don't know what wargames are, and "RPG" is not even a term yet, and you haven't seen another group play, and you just pick up Men & Magic and read through it, and that's all the information you have, I believe you'd be perfectly justified to have no earthly idea what it's talking about.

Questions I might have asked in this hypothetical scenario:
  • What's a campaign?
  • A miniature what?
  • Is this like a DIY boardgame without a board?
  • Why "referee", are we playing against each other?
  • Oh, it's a miniature figure. What's that? What is it for?
  • What's a unit counter?
  • Why is there a referee to player ratio?
  • What the heck are "the levels of the referee's underworld"? Is this a Divine Comedy reference?
  • So these "roles" or "characters" ("human or otherwise, fighter, cleric, or magic-user") are like types of pawn, right? Like in chess, but you only control one? Nothing here about roleplaying!
  • Why are there taxes in this chess?
  • What's a saving throw?
  • What does this Law / Neutrality / Chaos distinction mean?
  • (I decided to stop at page 10)
Granted, many of these questions will be answered later, if the reader persists despite the haphazard nature of what they've read so fair. But on the whole, I think it's not an exaggeration to say that OD&D only makes sense as a wargaming patch, and is not even meant to stand on its own.
 
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As I recall, in the video he even goes as far as to call original D&D "incomplete," and "not a full game."
yes, because it needed Chainmail and something else for Wilderness exploration, and supposedly most players had neither, at least that is the claim Matt, and I assume by extension the book, makes

I would respectfully submit that it was published in response to market demand.
you can submit that, there certainly was market demand to fill the gaps in the game, others were doing so by then, eg the Perrin Conventions, so there clearly was demand

AD&D spelled the end of these rulesets, their authors either disappeared or started creating their own TTRPGs (RuneQuest in the case of Steve Perrin)
 
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yes, because it needed Chainmail and something else for Wilderness exploration, and supposedly most players had neither, at least that is the claim Matt, and I assume by extension the book, makes
Then this is a misunderstanding, because it needed neither Chainmail nor Outdoor Survival. They were only recommended. Chainmail provided one set of combat rules (and plugged what Gary considered his most successful game until then), but OD&D provided an alternate set of rules. The only thing Outdoor Survival was recommended for was the hex map, and rules for foraging and surviving the elements, if the players wanted to engage in that. But the actual rules for exploring a wilderness hex map were included in D&D, and the game could be (and was) played without Outdoor Survival at all.
 

This is a terrific video, even by Matt's standards. Well worth the watch. (or listen - I had it on headphones while I was cleaning. Even better!)

I'm actually old enough to remember when some people thought players should not know the rules, but I'd forgotten. That viewpoint got so soundly defeated that I think I can be forgiven for not recalling it was even a debate. But indeed it was!
I can't remember playing an RPG with total player ignorance of the rules, but I've certainly seem quite a few where parts of the rules are obscured. This can go all the way from the relatively common "What are the stats of this monster?" to the less common "What is the penalty for doing X in situation Y?". But I can't recall playing an RPG obscuring basic task resolution.
 

I'm actually old enough to remember when some people thought players should not know the rules, but I'd forgotten. That viewpoint got so soundly defeated that I think I can be forgiven for not recalling it was even a debate. But indeed it was!
Gosh, it was, yeah, I'd forgotten too! It was JUST BARELY hanging around in 1993 when I first got on the internet and started talking to a lot of other RPG DMs/players. It wasn't common at all - just a couple of guys who insisted this was the right way to play, that basically the DM controlled everything, including the character sheets - the players just said what they wanted to do. By maybe 1995 or 1996 I didn't see anyone suggesting that.

EDIT - One thing I wonder about is how spells worked in this scenario. I either didn't think to ask, or have forgotten in the intervening 30 years. I do remember being shocked that with Hit Points, you just had to ask the DM how your character was, rather than knowing the number.
 
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1e had the to hit charts in the DMG so a player knew they wanted to roll high and have bigger bonuses to attack but generally not the numbers they needed to hit specific ACs in core AD&D until 2e in 89.

The 1e DMG talked about keeping rules knowledge from players separate specifically.
 

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