Matt Colville weighs in.

[darjr]

I was speaking to the general outrage over the $30 rumor (which is frankly still baseless at this point and hasn'tbeen forwarded by anybody reputable, we don't even know what it would supposedly be for).

I don't like D&D Beyond, personally, because I like analog pen & paper. So any digital service ain't for me. But I wouldn't "trust" any company beyond the terms of service at the time of purchase.

Eh.

When they'd say things like "we'll make sure you can walk away with your content if we go away" I trusted them. I trusted that was more than PR. Even if it was an "app" with all the problems that would face.

 

[Parmandur]

Eh.

When they'd say things like "we'll make sure you can walk away with your content if we go away" I trusted them. I trusted that was more than PR. Even if it was an "app" with all the problems that would face.

Wow, yeah, I wouldn't bet on that, though if they had gone belly up in 2019 WotC probably would have done something (give people vouchers for another service, what have you). At this point, the service probsvly won't go away anytime soon because of inertia, but nothing lasts forever.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Oh I get the difference. Fair enough.

But they are both still subscription systems.

Like, at this point we should be clear about what we are talking about. When people talk about what "subscriptions" they have nowadays, we're talking about what essentially amounts to our access to rental archives: Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max, etc. The money does not give ownership, it simply gives access, and you have no right to what you viewed afterwards. When we're talking about the rumored subscription tier, that's what thta is.

That's not really comparable to what Paizo calls their "subscription service". It's not even really like a magazine service anymore: I subscribe to their Core Rules releases and I don't pay every month or on any strict schedule, but rather upon completion of the product. If there were no releases in a year, I would pay nothing. While you could call it a "subscription service", it's not like that in the modern sense and is more of a preordering service than anything. It doesn't feel at all comparable to the stuff we are talking about now.

 

[Orius]

For sure, and it's not an either/or sort of thing. People will probsvly use both.

I won't. I usually find digital tools to be limiting and I'm not particularly interested in 6e in the first place.

 

[darjr]

View attachment 273915

Like, at this point we should be clear about what we are talking about. When people talk about what "subscriptions" they have nowadays, we're talking about what essentially amounts to our access to rental archives: Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max, etc. The money does not give ownership, it simply gives access, and you have no right to what you viewed afterwards. When we're talking about the rumored subscription tier, that's what thta is.

That's not really comparable to what Paizo calls their "subscription service". It's not even really like a magazine service anymore: I subscribe to their Core Rules releases and I don't pay every month or on any strict schedule, but rather upon completion of the product. If there were no releases in a year, I would pay nothing. While you could call it a "subscription service", it's not like that in the modern sense and is more of a preordering service than anything. It doesn't feel at all comparable to the stuff we are talking about now.

Yes this. Profoundly different.

 

[mamba]

My bet is they'll want to integrated the databases so you can go from ddb into the vtt and not "switch" systems. Monster stats and encounter handling with initiative etc. Unless they silo them as completely separate web sites and/or apps some integration will be needed. And even some by surprise can be a nightmare. Or at least a ton of extra work.

All of this could be easily replicated in the VTT, or retrieved from DDB (the stats, anything else you would do in the VTT itself, why would DDB handle the initiative for an encounter in the VTT? not really familiar with DDB, but I see no good reason to), neither is particularly complicated.

Integrating databases is the least of your worries for a seamless integration from a user perspective

 

[Parmandur]

I won't. I usually find digital tools to be limiting and I'm not particularly interested in 6e in the first place.

Nor I. But people will. Neither precludes the other.

 

[darjr]

All of this could be easily replicated in the VTT, or retrieved from DDB (the stats, anything else you would do in the VTT itself, why would DDB handle the initiative for an encounter in the VTT? not really familiar with DDB, but I see no good reason to), neither is particularly complicated.

Integrating databases is the least of your worries for a seamless integration from a user perspective

Ha!

Says every manager.

After all they've thrown 200+ new programmers at it right?

Then again it is possible and Chris Cao did do Magic Arena. So we'll see.

 

[darjr]

Please note i actually think they will get decent software out.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hope you are right. As to how do they enforce it? If you don’t allow people to enter certain data into a VTT, it’s enforced.

They can't enforce the ability of the player who purchased the "loot" actually being allowed to use it. Which will lead to customer disatisfaction, and regular requests for refunds. At best.

Are you suggesting they cannot block no official content from their virtual tabletop?

Not without huge pushback. See; Skyrim. If the fans expect and are used to being able to make the game their own, they will not tolerate losing that ability.

I say they can.

Will they? We shall see.

As to not being loot crates…maybe not at first. But if they can get the VTT popular and insert pay for advantage things in there they most certainly would if allowed.

Nah, come on, again, how would they ensure the player can even make use of what they've paid for? No, they'll sell access to content and assets, especially special assets you can't get otherwise.

Unless the backlash means it’s not worth it. I don’t care on some level. I have dice minis and terrain. It’s not me I am worried about. I just worry people might lose interest in the traditional game.

Never gonna happen. The VTT scene doesn't scratch the same itch. if it were that easy to get people to ditch TTRPGs, video games would have killed our hobby before wotc bought DnD.

 

[mamba]

Says every manager.

After all they've thrown 200+ new programmers at it right?

I have no idea how many are programmers there are, quite frankly I am not sure why they hired 350 people to begin with / what they are actually doing.

If you had asked me how many it would take, I would have said 50-100 sounds reasonable, and I might accept 150, but beyond that you have to start explaining why you need that many

Without any knowledge of what they do or what the timeline is (apparently they were working on something before they bought DDB, is this still the basis for the VTT or has this been scrapped? when in 2024 do you plan to release it, Jan or Juli does make a difference…) this is all impossible to estimate however.

Look at this another way, Foundry is what, a handful of developers?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

unless, of course, WOTC intend to support a full single-player experience, as some have suggested.

Of course they do. In video games.

Now, if they can integrate video game play elements into the vtt, especially as optional tutorials, and even the ability for users to generate quests like in Neverwinter Online, or the NWN games...that'd be awfully tempting. If i can input my character in my friend's game into some simple scenarios with some "AI" controlled/produced branching paths, and have a whole new path to engaging with my TTRPG character between sessions, hell yeah.

 

[Hussar]

sure, and so is leasing a car

Yes, and your point?

Millions of people lease cars every day. Millions of people pay for streaming services for TV and movies. Millions of people pay a subscription service to access books on Amazon for their Kindle.

It's not like there's some massive issue with subscription services. There's no moral failing for offering a subscription service as well as offering books for you to buy.

Is it worth it? I dunno. That's for the individual to decide. But, there's nothing inherently bad about a subscription service. Yuppers, I don't have access to that massive 4e library anymore that I had when I was paying for the service back in the 4e days. That's absolutely true.

OTOH, I don't actually care. I get that other people do. Fair enough. Buy your books and that's great. But, if you're not going to use the service, then why would anyone care what the price point is?

Oh noes, they're offering a service that isn't 100% catering to my personal tastes, whatever shall I do?

You want to know how many dead tree books I've bought in the past 10 years? 6. Three 4e core books and 3 5e core books. And my 5e books are virtually pristine because they've almost never been used. I probably wouldn't even buy the core books next time around if I can just subscribe.

A subscription service that links my VTT with a DDI database? Sign me up. And, five, ten years down the line when TwoD&D comes out, I'll move on to that and never look back.

 

[Hussar]

View attachment 273915

Like, at this point we should be clear about what we are talking about. When people talk about what "subscriptions" they have nowadays, we're talking about what essentially amounts to our access to rental archives: Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max, etc. The money does not give ownership, it simply gives access, and you have no right to what you viewed afterwards. When we're talking about the rumored subscription tier, that's what thta is.

That's not really comparable to what Paizo calls their "subscription service". It's not even really like a magazine service anymore: I subscribe to their Core Rules releases and I don't pay every month or on any strict schedule, but rather upon completion of the product. If there were no releases in a year, I would pay nothing. While you could call it a "subscription service", it's not like that in the modern sense and is more of a preordering service than anything. It doesn't feel at all comparable to the stuff we are talking about now.

I'd also point out that what you are talking about is quite a bit less than what they are talking about. You are getting only the core rules, no adventures, no database, just the books. If you were to actually subscribe (and note, Paizo's own store calls it a subscription, so, you can split hairs all you like) to get the amount of material that you would get at this "30 dollar a month" made up level, how much would it cost you? Would you be paying for something nearly every month? Yuppers, you would.

Yes, there is a difference in that you are subscribing to a printed product and you are getting a physical product for your money. For you, that is a selling point. Fair enough. But, it doesn't suddenly stop being a subscription just because you get a physical product. For me, a physical product is a total non-starter. I'm not interested. I have a blood shelf full of Dungeon and Dragon magazines just gathering mold because most likely I will never read them again. Hell, I've thrown out/sold/given away more copies of both magazines than I currently have.

Again, a digital subscription to me is a far, far more appealing product. Doesn't make it better. DOesn't mean that I'm subscribing and you aren't. It's just that there are different kinds of subscription programs.

Good grief. Ok, Paizo is not offering a subcripton service. What term would you use for what they offer that I can use so that I don't have to piss around with all this pedantic crap? Pick a term and I'll happily use that.

 

[raniE]

Well, there are valid reasons to believe that WotC will not back down from "deauthorizing" the 1.0 OGL.




^This^

Wotc is what poker players call Pot-Invested on this. They have sunk so much money on the OneVTT initiative that they have to se it through in order to get a return on their investment.

D&D makes about 150 million a year. Which is incredible. But that is gross income, not net...

WotC has also just spent about 150 million for D&D beyond. And for the past few years they have sunk tens of millions in development costs for the OneVTT.

I don't think that it would be a stretch to say that in the past few years WotC has spent more money in preparation for the One VTT than D&D currently makes in a few years.

We are in a situation where WotC has simply spent too much money to ever back down from their plan at this point.

All this 1.2 OGL survey stuff is just a form of damage control PR to redirect the conversation about the upcoming "deauthorization" of the 1.0 OGL.

The thing about being pot committed is it is absolutely no guarantee that you will win the pot. WotC is sitting with mediocre hole cards and the flop was terrible for them. If things always worked out for companies that bet big on something we’d be sitting with what, at least forty MMOs the size of WOW and a dozen cinematic universes as successful as Marvel’s stuff? That WotC has certain plans is clear. That they have any hope at all of succeeding with those plans is not clear.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Why am I going to spend 30$ every month when with that money I can buy a book each two months? And my launcher of Epic Game has got more of one hundred games, among them Pathfinder: Kingmaker and other CRPGs. And I didn't pay for them, they were free gifts.

 

[Nikosandros]

Sorry, but, how is that not a subscription? You pay a recurring fee to receive periodical releases over the time frame of your payment period.

That's a subscription. Isn't it?

And, as was mentioned a bit later, a Paizo sub is significantly more expensive than 30 bucks a month. So, if I'm getting a full feature VTT with access to the entire D&D library (similar to what they did with the 4e online tools) that's not exactly a high price point. Bit pricey, but, not totally out there. Make it 20 bucks a month and I'm sold so long as the VTT actually works.

But if someone stops subscribing from Paizo, you keep all the books (and the PDFs) that you bought. It's a big difference. The Paizo model is more like a traditional magazine subscription, except that you pay as you go. The WotC model is like streaming services. That's what I was saying.

 

[Jaeger]

The thing about being pot committed is it is absolutely no guarantee that you will win the pot. WotC is sitting with mediocre hole cards and the flop was terrible for them. If things always worked out for companies that bet big on something we’d be sitting with what, at least forty MMOs the size of WOW and a dozen cinematic universes as successful as Marvel’s stuff? That WotC has certain plans is clear. That they have any hope at all of succeeding with those plans is not clear.

They don’t need four of a kind, when two pair will do nicely.

WOTC doesn’t need a mega hit like WOW.

They’d be just tickled pink with a Diablo Immortal...

A game utterly reviled by Diablo fandom; Yet it's still a multimillion dollar micro transaction money maker, that brings in that fat cheddar.

And they don't care who they have to step on, or over, to get it.

WotC is 110% Ok with this for D&D:

Diablo Immortal May Officially Be the Most Hated Game of the Past 20 Years

According to recent data, the new Diablo Immortal might prove to not only be the worst game from Activision Blizzard, but the most hated in decades.

www.cbr.com

If they also get this from the D&D OneVTT:

Diablo Immortal Has Reportedly Made Over $300 Million

Blizzard's Diablo Immortal surpasses the $300 million revenue mark in global earnings, despite controversy over the game's monetization.

gamerant.com

 

[Hussar]

But if someone stops subscribing from Paizo, you keep all the books (and the PDFs) that you bought. It's a big difference. The Paizo model is more like a traditional magazine subscription, except that you pay as you go. The WotC model is like streaming services. That's what I was saying.

Well, again, fair enough. I get that. They are different services. True. But, there are some pretty clear similarities as well - a scheduled payment made to the producer for products. That's what a subscription is. And, again, if the Pathfinder subscription is significantly more expensive (which apparently it is? I haven't done the math, so, if it's not, then mea culpa), then you are paying a premium for those print products. WotC is apparently offering a service where you gain access to all WotC material for a monthly fee. Granted, you don't get to own that material, but, perhaps there are other perks - searchable databases, linking with the VTT, that sort of thing that makes it attractive at the price point.

My point before diving down this rabbit hole is that a 30 dollar a month price point isn't necessarily an insane amount of money. Probably more than I'd pay, true, but, again, comparing it to other subscription style services, 30 bucks a month isn't terribly out of line either.

 

[Jadeite]

You don't really need a subscription to gain access to Paizo's game rules, they are released as Open Content and available through the Archives of Nethys. Of course, that doesn't include modules and setting, but it's still pretty nice.