Meek to mighty... in a month
- Thread starter FitzTheRuke
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ruleslawyer
Registered User
Or switch to free-form leveling up, which is what I do (and will do in 4e).
IME, where you set the bar for # of encounters per level is irrelevant, because a DM will always tweak it as needed. There are a lot of advantages to setting the bar at (say) 1 level per session; it means that casual gamers get to have their PCs level up every time they play (which may be no more than once a month) and so something "happens" from the character build perspective every time people get together. For people like me, who game with friends and are largely insulated from the need to provide PC level-ups as a reward, it's simple enough to just flatten the advancement curve a bit.
IME, where you set the bar for # of encounters per level is irrelevant, because a DM will always tweak it as needed. There are a lot of advantages to setting the bar at (say) 1 level per session; it means that casual gamers get to have their PCs level up every time they play (which may be no more than once a month) and so something "happens" from the character build perspective every time people get together. For people like me, who game with friends and are largely insulated from the need to provide PC level-ups as a reward, it's simple enough to just flatten the advancement curve a bit.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
I'm in the take-time-off occasionally camp myself. I think it would be incredibly exausting to adventure 24-7. Maybe for a few weeks, but you'd want to "sleep a month" after!
Fitz
Fitz
I don't think this will be more of an issue in 4E--indeed, probably less of one. Sure, characters can handle more encounters at a go, but that only comes up if you the DM throw more encounters at them. On the other hand, previous editions suffered serious balance issues if you didn't provide enough encounters per day to wear down the casters, whereas 4E is much more tolerant of situations where you only have one encounter in a day.
Not only that, but 4E power levels don't scale nearly as dramatically. In 3E, character power is expected to roughly double every 2 levels. In 4E, it's every 4 levels. So if your PCs are levelling at the same overall rate that they were in 3E, they're only gaining actual power--relative to their previous, un-levelled selves--half as fast as they were before.
That said, 4E will still suffer (even if not as much) from the problem that has plagued D&D since its inception, namely the fact that breadth-based advancement--expanding the number of mechanical options available to you--remains tied to depth-based advancement--increasing the power level of your best options. You cannot gain breadth without also gaining depth. So long as that stays the case, and so long as new/improved mechanical options are used as a reward for successful play, D&D will continue to be a place where PCs go from "regular adventurer" to "god-slaying avatar of destruction" in a matter of months.
Not only that, but 4E power levels don't scale nearly as dramatically. In 3E, character power is expected to roughly double every 2 levels. In 4E, it's every 4 levels. So if your PCs are levelling at the same overall rate that they were in 3E, they're only gaining actual power--relative to their previous, un-levelled selves--half as fast as they were before.
That said, 4E will still suffer (even if not as much) from the problem that has plagued D&D since its inception, namely the fact that breadth-based advancement--expanding the number of mechanical options available to you--remains tied to depth-based advancement--increasing the power level of your best options. You cannot gain breadth without also gaining depth. So long as that stays the case, and so long as new/improved mechanical options are used as a reward for successful play, D&D will continue to be a place where PCs go from "regular adventurer" to "god-slaying avatar of destruction" in a matter of months.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
The 3e/4e design of gaining levels so frequently - sometimes several levels within a single adventure if it's a big one - kinda put the final nail in the coffin of one of the more effective ways of slowing down advancement in game-world time: training.
If characters have to stand down for a few weeks every level and train - never mind possibly having to travel to somewhere where training may be had - that right there means it'll take longer in-game to get to high level. Still not "longer" enough, but it's a start.
A DM can slow things down by not always having another adventure waiting for the party, but this fails if the party insists on proactively going out and finding trouble as soon as they can every chance they get.
Others have mentioned travel, which sure helps at lower levels, and slowing down the actual advancement rate (i.e. more ExP per level); both are good, but there's really no substitute for the DM giving parties something to do between adventures - castle-building, spell research, planning a wedding (this one works - I managed to get two parties to take a couple of months off because a couple of PCs had decided to get married to each other and all hands were invited to the wedding), etc.
It's a problem, though. Even 1e recognized it, and tried (badly) to handle it by suggesting that one non-session day to the players is one day to the PCs - obviously, this falls apart when the session ends with the PCs in mid-adventure; or worse, in mid-combat.
Lanefan
If characters have to stand down for a few weeks every level and train - never mind possibly having to travel to somewhere where training may be had - that right there means it'll take longer in-game to get to high level. Still not "longer" enough, but it's a start.
A DM can slow things down by not always having another adventure waiting for the party, but this fails if the party insists on proactively going out and finding trouble as soon as they can every chance they get.
Others have mentioned travel, which sure helps at lower levels, and slowing down the actual advancement rate (i.e. more ExP per level); both are good, but there's really no substitute for the DM giving parties something to do between adventures - castle-building, spell research, planning a wedding (this one works - I managed to get two parties to take a couple of months off because a couple of PCs had decided to get married to each other and all hands were invited to the wedding), etc.
It's a problem, though. Even 1e recognized it, and tried (badly) to handle it by suggesting that one non-session day to the players is one day to the PCs - obviously, this falls apart when the session ends with the PCs in mid-adventure; or worse, in mid-combat.
Lanefan
Celebrim
Legend
I think realistically, a 4e party will be able to handle 15-30 encounters a day.
Adventure for 2 hours, rest for six. Adventure for 2 more, rest for six. Adventure for 2 more hours, and rest for six. Total, 24 hours.
Each six hour rest restores hit points and healing surges fully. Each encounter is designed to use up two healing surges. Your average party will be able handle about 5 big encounters per 8 hour stretch, or more some higher number of less stressful challenges.
As we've seen, PC parties seem capable of handling solo monsters of slightly higher level than party level. So its not out of the realm of possibility that a faster rate of andvanced than 10 encounters per level is possible.
It then wouldn't be completely impossible for a party to go from 1st to 30th in a weeks game time (though it would make Jack Bauer's work days look relaxed) if the adventure was located in a small geographic area (mega dungeons like Plotus, Ruins of Greyhawk, Undermountain, etc. are perfect), although I think a month is probably a more reasonable estimate.
Adventure for 2 hours, rest for six. Adventure for 2 more, rest for six. Adventure for 2 more hours, and rest for six. Total, 24 hours.
Each six hour rest restores hit points and healing surges fully. Each encounter is designed to use up two healing surges. Your average party will be able handle about 5 big encounters per 8 hour stretch, or more some higher number of less stressful challenges.
As we've seen, PC parties seem capable of handling solo monsters of slightly higher level than party level. So its not out of the realm of possibility that a faster rate of andvanced than 10 encounters per level is possible.
It then wouldn't be completely impossible for a party to go from 1st to 30th in a weeks game time (though it would make Jack Bauer's work days look relaxed) if the adventure was located in a small geographic area (mega dungeons like Plotus, Ruins of Greyhawk, Undermountain, etc. are perfect), although I think a month is probably a more reasonable estimate.
Lanefan said:
Why would the party do this?
For the players, it doesn't matter whether it takes three days or three years of in-game time for their characters to level up. They don't have to sit through those three years. The DM simply announces, "Three years have passed since the last adventure," and three years flash by just like that.
For the characters, no doubt they'd love to be able to level up super-fast, but the PCs don't know from XP and level-appropriate challenges. Within the reality of the game world, they have no reason to believe going out and picking fights with random monsters is better than a good training regimen for improving their talents.
The only way this becomes an issue is if there's some kind of time factor to the current quest, and the players decide, metagame, to try and gain an edge by "power leveling" during what was supposed to be downtime. In which case, the DM is perfectly within his rights to either drastically slash your XP awards, or level up the opposition to compensate. You gained 3 levels during what was meant to be downtime? Good for you. So did the Big Bad--he kills a lot more people than you do, he's entitled to his experience points just like you are.
Once the players realize that this will inevitably happen any time they try to finesse the rules like this, the impulse to "power level" will hopefully dissipate.
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TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
keterys said:One of my first 3.0 games involved the party levelling from 1 to 20 in approximately a month of game time... nothing new here, moving right along.
Right, its nothing new.
And it does bother me to no end. Which is nothing new.
Travel and training can help. You can even give XP for downtime (which can reflect all kinds of things).
Main solution is pacing between adventures...and players knowing its ok if three months, or six months, or a year just pass by in game time.
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
TerraDave said:
Honestly, I think that's the big culprit there, plot pacing, especially in regards to adventure paths and mega-adventures.
When you can't even make a darn +3 weapon because the plot doesn't give you enough downtime, that's a problem.
Brad
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