Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Majere]

BAB +24
Melee BAB: +30 (simple light weapons)
Missile BAB: +30

Cool
How do you get a BAB over 20 ... ?

Majere

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Majere, you need to go back and read the rules at the beginning of the thread. It's for non-multiclassed fighters. A fighter/paladin using smites is nifty but is not really germane to the topic.

 

[Scion]

Mostly the Psy War, just shows me how much some things in the XPH are out of line with "equivalent" spells. For instance, Empathic Feedback ignoring DR, regeneration, massive duration (10 minutes per level!!) and non-typed damage. Compare to Fire Shield's duration of 1 round per level and typed damage (fire or cold). Fireshield, a 4th level spell was nerfed in two successive editions (from 1st to 2e, then from 2e to 3.0) just because of its excessive damage dealing. And its damage is at least typed! Such fundamental errors...

The error is with the short term buffs, not the long term buffs. I had to work incredibly hard just to get them up to a useful duration and even as it is it only works at level 20 (earlier with some hack work, but that method is a bit cheap).

1 round/level buff had better be incredible, because you are really only going to get one a battle. If most/all buffs are short term (even 10min/level is pretty short term) then they just become useless. It forces caster types to sit more on instant effect spells. but then for most casters direct damage spells are near worthless, so it pushes more towards insta kills as being the only viable alternative.

Very bad.

Empathic feedback I feel is actually incredibly well done, although the first time it works against someone I think it should check for sr to see if it can effect that person.

Otherwise though it takes a ton of pp to hit someone back. Bypassing regen is simply elegant in form while bypassing DR is effectively automatic as it comes from a power.

So rather than proving the superiority of the Psychic Warrior, Scion's arguments seems to prove to me that certain powers are out of whack, rather than the Psychic Warrior being superior. Such powers being sought out by nearly all Psychic Warriors.

If you only have 2 or 3 actual useful things to choose from then it is very likely people will choose those more than whatever is unuseable.

Most of the powers that could be picked are either a) too short in duration to be useful (minutes per level? please shoot me now) or b) generally useless (astral travelor)

If you are trying to say that picking from the incredibly small list of actual useful ones that people come up with similar builds and this is somehow bad/wrong then the problem is that there arent enough useful different abilities to choose from to make different builds viable.

Each of the psychic warriors I have made for these threads lately has had inertial armor. That is because I simply like the flavor of it, many builds can do without it very easily and save a pp along with a power slot.


As with a good portion of 3.5 the problem is that certain types of spells/powers are being made worthless (with too short of durations to be useful) which makes the remaining spells/powers that are actually worthwhile into a smaller list and people look more uniform.


Which goes right along with what I said about fighters in the other thread. They need a ton of sources to get enough feats so that they can pretend to be a good class. Given enough they can pick and choose the strongest/most overpowered and use them to shore up their glaring weaknesses. Not because they are a good class, but because of the sheer number of sources they can pick up enough overpowered stuff to almost make them worthwhile.

 

[Majere]

Majere, you need to go back and read the rules at the beginning of the thread. It's for non-multiclassed fighters. A fighter/paladin using smites is nifty but is not really germane to the topic.

Stop nit picking
The smite damage is listed sperately
If you want to know the damage for a straight level 20 fighter read the line above. You will see that the average difference in damage is about 12.

Further
You lose 2 points to all your saves.
However you an have an 8 for int and use the extra points to up your wisand con, use the cash from no cha increasing item and up your wis with a tome and the will save (the important one) is unchanged.

Really
The points are so minor its irrelevant, see my previous posts where a level 20 fighter was more powerful than the dwarven defnder I first posted. I tend to take slight multiclassess just to help the saves, but for pure smackdown number crunching the differences are in the 1-2% range.

My fighter still kick 7shades of out of the balor.

Majere

 

[Nail]

Empathic feedback I feel is actually incredibly well done...

All this is just assertion. Facts?

Your analysis shows the power is out of whack - clear as day - by doing this comparison. And without Empathic Feedback, your PW doesn't keep up in the average damage department.

Empathic Feedback sounds an aweful lot like a "3.0e Haste" => too good for it's level/pp.

]If you only have 2 or 3 actual useful things to choose from then it is very likely people will choose those more than whatever is unuseable.

Absolutely. And, as your build shows, the psionics system in D&D is quite off....and badly in need of more play-testing and balancing. That's too bad.


Back on topic: I'm pleasantly surprised at how well (comparatively) the Ftr 20 is doing. When starting to read this thread, I thought for sure the Ftr 20 was going to be creamed. That's clearly not the case. Huh!

 

[Patlin]

Each of the psychic warriors I have made for these threads lately has had inertial armor. That is because I simply like the flavor of it, many builds can do without it very easily and save a pp along with a power slot.

I tried to keep my typing to a minimum, but in order to show some variety...

Inertial Armor is on my "I want" list of powers, but I didn't put it down until level 23. It has therefore played no role at all for me in any of these threads.

Here's my power wishlist. I've deleted the ones that don't become available till epic levels.

Vigor [A]
Bite of The Wolf
Expansion [A][S+6pp]
Precognition, Offensive [A][S+6pp]
Force Screen [A]

Body Adjustment [A][Full round]
Strength Of My Enemy [A][S+6]
Psionic Lion's Charge [A]

Concealing Amorpha, Greater
Empathic Feedback [A]
Danger Sense [A]

Dimension Door, Psi [Move +4]
Energy Adaptation [I+4]
Freedom of Movement, Psionic
Inertial Barrier
Schism
Steadfast Perception

Perfect Riposte [S+6]
Power Resistance

Form of Doom [A]
Mind Blank, Personal
Dispelling Buffer

Here are my feats:

Psionic Weapon* (level 1)
Psionic Body (Class 1)
Psicrystal Affinity (Human)
Power Attack (Class 2)
Cleave (Level 3)
Psicrystal Containment (Class 5)
Weapon Focus (Falchion) (L. 6)
Deep Impact* (Class 8)
Psionic Meditation (Level 9)
Imp. Critical (Falchion) (Class 11)
Combat Reflexes (Level 12)
Exp. Know. (Schism) (Class 14)
Great Cleave (Level 15)
Exp. Know. (Power Resist) (C. 17)
Multiattack (Level 18)
Gtr. Psionic Weapon* (Class 20)

After all of this discussion, I'm tempted to move combat reflexes up to an earlier position...

 

[Scion]

All this is just assertion. Facts?

The part you quoted clearly states, 'I feel...' Also, what you have stated here are also just assertions, and fairly unsupported ones really.

Your analysis shows the power is out of whack - clear as day - by doing this comparison. And without Empathic Feedback, your PW doesn't keep up in the average damage department.

What are you talking about? You are jumping to conclusions.

The power in question that you are talking about is currently equivalent to something above a 9th level spell. The effect that it does costs a great deal in order to get anything out of it.

At these levels it is easy for a single strike from the foe to deal much, much more than will be returned. I have simply maxed it out, and even then it only helps flesh the character out.

Like I said, I think it should allow SR the first time for each opponent it hurts, but beyond that it seems fine. The only odd thing is that it bypasses regen, but I dont see that as a problem at all.

My psychic warrior build is keeping up just fine in damage though thanks. Its average damage per hit is higher, its average damage per round is only slightly lower (the big disparity above, as I have stated multiple times, is because of equipment choice. By getting a single pair of boots the damages become nearly the same), and with expenditure of a few resources the psychic warriors damage goes much higher.

Empathic Feedback sounds an aweful lot like a "3.0e Haste" => too good for it's level/pp.

more assertions that have no place here, and are not well founded.

Absolutely. And, as your build shows, the psionics system in D&D is quite off....and badly in need of more play-testing and balancing. That's too bad.

My build shows nothing of the sort. If you feel that way do try to actually provide some real reasoning.

The psychic warriors emphasis changed greatly from 3.0 to 3.5. His feat choices were completely changed, pp aquisistion and powers are different, and what he needs to do to be good at what he does changes considerably.

The build I made was a manifesting psychic warrior. Almost the same as a buffing character who then goes into melee. He is actually doing very well, although I had to pull out many, many more stops than should have been necissary.

Fleshed out? sure, but then the vast majority of the system still needs work. Especially the fighter.

The psychic warrior is definately much too weak though. With useing a few powers in proper combination and maxed out at the utmost of levels it is a very interesting build. Anything below this level and it loses power incredibly rapidly.

Back on topic: I'm pleasantly surprised at how well (comparatively) the Ftr 20 is doing. When starting to read this thread, I thought for sure the Ftr 20 was going to be creamed. That's clearly not the case. Huh!

Of course, the psychic warrior was based after the fighter in a lot of ways.

Since it is based off of the weakest class though it is going to have some problems.

Still though, even with that they have made vast improvements over the fighter. The psychic warrior is versitile, powerful, and has many options just from a single source whereas the fighter needs to have a great number of different sources to keep up (a good amount of those sources were condensed down into complete warrior which is good for him, having a source with hundreds of feats is what he needs to even try to be a good character someday).

So for sheer versitility? psychic warrior wins hands down.

Kill a single powerful foe wise? that is a toss up, sometimes one wins and sometimes the other. It depends on the circumstances and the gear. But then the psychic warrior has reserves that the fighter does not and can use those to pull ahead when needed.

 

[Nail]

So for sheer versitility? psychic warrior wins hands down.

Kill a single powerful foe wise? that is a toss up, ....

....and here's the part that surprises me, really. I just assumed psionics (being what it is) would wipe the floor with the Ftr (argueably the weakest class in core 3.5e). The fact that that's not necessarily the case is ....good. The fact that there are only a few psionic powers that are out of whack is also good - heartening, even.

 

[green slime]

Cool
How do you get a BAB over 20 ... ?

Majere

Well... just an error in nomenclature.

His BAB is +20, but with Intuitive Attack (from BoED) he can use his Wisdom mod instead of Str mod for attacks with Simple weapons "your size or smaller" (sic).

 

[Reis_Thunderwood]

Wog-wog!

WOG-WOG THE BEATSTICK

(10) Str: 34 [16 +6 (item) +5 (inherent) + 2 (racial) +5 (level)]
(2) Dex: 16 [10 +6 (item)]
(6) Con: 22 [14 +6 (item) + 2 (inherent)]
(4) Int: 10 [12 -2 (racial)]
(0) Wis: 8
(3)Cha: 9 [11 -2 (racial)]
(25)

hp: 20d10 (115) + 20*6 (120) = 235 hp

BAB +20
Adamantium Greatclub: +37 [+20 (BAB) + 12 (Str) + 1 (Magic Weapon) + 2 (Reckless) + 2 (Weapon/Gr Weap Focus)]

Damage: 1d10 +4 (spec) +24 (str x2) +1 (magic) = 1d10+29 = 34.5 / (19-20/x2)

AC: 10 +3 dex +9 armor -4 reckless = 18
Touch: 10+3-4 = 9

Saves:
Fort: 23 [12 (base) +6 (Con)+5 (item)]
Reflex: 16 [6 (base)+3 (Dex)+5 (item) +2 (feat)]
Will: 10 [6 (base) -1 (Wis) +5 (item)]

Skills: 9+2*19+20 = 66
Intimidate (7/+19)
Climb (2/+14)
Jump (3/+15)
Ride (5/+8)
Sense Motive (10/+9)
Swim (5/+17)
Spot (6/+5)
Listen (6/+5)

Feats: Improved Critical, Reckless Offense, Weapon Focus (Great Club), Weapon Specialization (Great Club), Greater Weapon Focus (Great Club), Greater Weapon Specialization (Great Club), Resounding Blow, Quell the Profane, Nymphs Kiss, Blind Fight, Lightning Reflexes, Prone Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Three Mountains Style

Equipment:
+1 Adamantine Axiomatic (+2) Body Feeding (+3) Dancing (+4) Greatclub (203,000 gp)
+5 Adamantine Anarchic (+2) Body Feeding (+3) Greatclub (203,000 gp)
Amulet of Health +6 (36,000)
Girdle of Giant Strength +6 (36,000)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000)
Mithral Full Plate +1 of Speed (26,500)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000)
Potion of Fly (750)
Potion of Heroism (750)
Elixir of Hiding (250)
Elixir of Sneaking (250)
TOTAL: 759,500

Damage Dealt (assuming average criticals)
Dancing | 37/32/27/22 | 41.4 +2d6 Axiomatic | DC 32 Fort or Nauseated
Held | 41/36/31/26 | 46.2 +2d6 Anarchic | DC 32 Fort or Nauseated
Plus 61% [(1-.9^3) = 27% and (1-.9^4) = 34%] of a crit each round
Since this is greater than 50%, assumed 1 crit per round causing EVIL opponents to:
DC 21 Will Save or Cowering, DC 21 Fort Save or suffer 1d4+1 Str Damage
Results in 3 Dancing and 4 Held Hits = 3x41.6 + 4x46.2 = 309 points per round + extras
Opponent dies in 0.97 rounds

Damage Taken: assuming no buffing, etc...:
+35/+30+25/+20 (3d6+20) = 95% + 95% + 95% + 95% = All Hits = 31 per hit = 122 damage per round
However, assuming 61% chance of a crit, he heals 54.21516 points per round.
Total damage suffered per round is 67.78484
WOG-WOG lasts for 3.46685188015491 rounds.

____________________________________________

This assumes that I've interpreted the dancing ability to benefit the virtual wielder with the wielder's feats correctly.

His biggest weakness is going to be against creatures that he can't critical. If he can critical hit it, then it is done. No real difference in the outcome for any period of the day. He should sleep with his clubs in hand so that he can use prone attack to kip up and attack. His AC is so bad that not having it pumped doesn't mean a whole lot.

If all else fails, he has a few 1-shot items to facilitate escape. Mobility isn't too bad with these and the armor of speed.

Also, WOG-WOG seems like an interesting fellow. He's probably Neutral Good, a Half-Orc, and was raised by Nymphs(!?). *Shrug* stranger things have happened. Maybe they helped his mother through child birth and agreed to care for the child. Now he is their noble champion! Please critique!

Reis.