Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Scion]

Quite frankly, Scion, you'll have to try to be a little more open-minded. You clearly have no interest in actually comparing characters capabilities. All you want to do is chant your "anything you can do I can do better" mantra over and over again. Saying it doesn't make it so.

But showing it repeatidly does make it so. I have been having to correct what people have said repeatidly and that is getting very bothersome. Especially since even when it is corrected, and in the part the person quotes, they still get it wrong. It has happened multiple times so far in this thread alone.

And it doesn't help when you assume a best case scenario for the PsyWar at all times (as I count it you assume the PsyWar overchannels his Hostile Empathic Transfer against the Balor in order to minimize the significance of its SR),

Umm.. yeah. That is 'why' he has overchannel and talented, along with haveing 2 focuses to use at one time. That is not a best case scenario, that is the status quo.

If you dont wish me to use several of my feats during combat, when that is what they are designed to do, then I'll have to ask you to not use power attack, combat expertise, and maybe a couple others as those are best case scenarios.

miscalculate gold expenditure (the equipment posted for my fighter is about 4.5kgp under the limit--it's only over the limit if you start counting pearls of power for every bit of help you get from party members),

Although I should count those since you have made it a major case, I havent yet. I did find out where one disperity was though, you list things differently than I do so I had thought you meant '4 javalins of lightning at 6k each' and not that it was total.

Still, that puts your total at 759.52k + 'a few thousand in javalins and consumeables'. Which puts you over by several thousand. This is without counting the large amounts in pearls and such, but with those counted in then you are around 100k over. Seems only fair to pay for abilities that are used by others after all. That makes the playing field even as much as can be with useing gear and people in such scenarios.

and continually change the capabilities of your character (this weapon, that weapon, the other weapon, skin of the defender, boots of speed, whatever),

When it is pointed out to say that the psychic warrior is doing so much less damage then it seems perfectly acceptable to say that the reason is because of item X, which it was. After all, that item gives you a +1 to all attacks, +1 to ac, +1 to reflex, and +1 attack. I would have to say that is more than 'significant' in this evaluation.

Also, I have said that I would put up a revised guy when I got the chance.

When it comes down to dragon, we started out assuming that the goal was simply to survive for a couple rounds but when it becomes apparent that the fighter can dodge and survive longer, all of a sudden it's a question of who has the least infinitessimal chance of going out in a blaze of glory by one-round killing the dragon.

Actually you started out by saying that the psychic warrior would die horribly and the fighter would be able to survive longer.

I put forward how the psychic warrior could last longer.

Then you started talking about how much damage would be dealt by each, so I came up with how my guys chances of killing it outright were better.

Now you are saying that it is bad to compare various parts of the fight? Come on.

The psychic warrior has about the same ac (I have the guy redone and will repost him in a moment) but the fighter can boost up his ac to be much higher. Ok then, that is cool. But then I said with the proper boost the psychic warrior would stand a much better chance (something he can do several times a day without fear, but it is a limited resource of course). Against damage this is where it gets interesting, it can go either way depending on what is going on and how badly the psychic warrior wants to kill it.

Even then, I notice that you discount everything that the fighter could do on the basis of "the dragon would be buffed/etc so that wouldn't work" but insist that, somehow, even though you haven't worked out the odds, the PsyWar does an average of 299 points of damage/round to the dragon without saying what buffs and items you're crediting the dragon with. So, not only has the half of the goal that was more difficult for the PsyWar to reach disappeared but the dragon appears to have mysteriously shown up naked to fight the psywar.

Suppression weapon is fun. It has to come into play somewhere, it is a pretty good chunk of cash after all.

Still though, your damage assumed no buffs so mine assumed no buffs. Yours assumed full attack so mine assumed full attack.

Going through the powers it was form of doom up and a fully powered psionic lions charge. Sure, lots of his resources, but then the dragon is probably pretty scared and has a decent chance of being dead, along with having a hard time killing the psychic warrior fast enough to not die himself.

Exchanges like this:

have done little to convince me of your good faith.

Note that your post, which I quoted, made it sound like you could pull that off for each grapple check. It obviously wasnt what you meant but since I didnt have the book at the time and didnt know what the feat did I had to take your word for it. But then to find out it is actually very limited was a bit of a letdown.

If you add the numbers together, the fighter's grapple check to resist the dragon is d20+60--slightly better than the dragon's d20+58. Neither that, nor improved grab monsters nor charcters with improved grapple are "incredibly narrow sets of circumstances."

How often do people try to grapple you? Especially dragons. So basically in this case you have to try to be grappled by someone/thing, you have to get the aoo (something else may prevent this even with the feat), you have to hit the target (you have a very good attack bonus, but it still isnt assured to hit), you have to deal damage (DR could come into play here), and only then do you get the bonus to oppose that.

In my experience it is a narrow set of circumstances, for you it may happen all of the time, that is why I said it was nice but it seemed limited.

This was not hostile, it wasnt even bad, it was simply stating my opinion for you to try to refute later on. Do no take it as offensive, down that path lies madness.

If you can't admit it when the fighter does something well, there's no point in continuing the discussion. The fighter does resist grapples well. He resists them in a different manner than the PsyWar--a manner that has both strengths and weaknesses. The strengths are that it is non-magical, deals noticable damage to his enemies and is available throughout his career. The weaknesses are that it doesn't work reliably against the really really good grapplers and that it requires him to hit (which is usually a formality but might go down to as low as 50% vs. the dragon).

I didnt say he didnt do it well, I said that you made it sound like he was doing something else entirely well (grapple checks). Also, he gets a check, but the psychic warrior gets to simply ignore them altogether. So compare a check to see if it works or not vs simply being able to ignore the entire problem I'd have to say that the guy who gets to ignore is doing better.

Sure, the fighter does it well, but no where near as well as the other guy.

At 20th level, the PsyWar resists better than the fighter (which I've admitted since the first post on the subject) but this fighter still gets quite high marks for resisting because in most situations, he's practically invulnerable to grapples.

I would like to see how a dedicated grappling specialist deals with it. But it is a nice feat.

Again though, I see it as a pretty small issue. Sortof like a feat that negates the +1 from high ground. But this is from my own experience and reinforced by the rule (which I dont believe you have quoted yet) that negates many attacks. Even dedicated grappling monsters would seem to be dumb to grapple a good portion of the time, which is very odd indeed.

Of course being invisible negates it

Your consistent failure to address the need for buffing rounds to put up form of doom is also unhelpful. If the PsyWar uses expansion, form of doom, and Psionic Lion's charge as you seem to think is the ultimate backup plan (and, being honest, it is a pretty good one) that needs to be compared to the amount of damage the fighter does in two rounds rather than one--because that's the amout of time it takes the PsyWar to actually do it.

Actually, I have been. First round manifest form of doom and expansion, fighter moves up and attacks. Second round psionic lions charge make full attack, fighter makes full attack.

So the fighter is ahead by 1 standard action but the psychic warrior is fully buffed. I may not have made it entirely clear, it was to me (since both combatants were getting full attacks) but I suppose it may not have been to others. Did everyone simply assume the combatants start at arms length every time? I even gave the fighter the benefit of the doubt that he could get up to the baddy, even with his horrible movement rate.

Similarly, statements like this: which you consistently make assume that the PsyWar is consistently using Form of Doom and Psionic Lion's charge. However, you don't seem to take that drain on your pp into account.

psionic lions charge was only used for big numbers (mostly form of doom was the same, but that is another issue).

The posted character can do form of doom 4 times a day and have enough points for two low end psionic lions charges. Since the comparison on the first page is for 4 battles a day this seemed perfectly in line, dont you agree?

If he can have it up all 4 times then it is no stretch to have it up all 4 times.

(Equivalent of a 9th level spell--right. It's augmentable to cost the same power points; that's not exactly the same thing.)

It is exactly the same thing. If you pay enough points for it to be a ninth level power then it is equivalent to a ninth level power.

Other than that, it has also convinced me that you're completely unwilling to consider that the PsyWar might be second best in any regard. (Prediction: this will come back quoted with the reply "because he's not.") It has also convinced me that a 20th level fighter is or at least can be (because there are plenty of ways to screw up a fighter just like there are plenty of ways to screw up a psywar) one tough hombre and that he can stand up to 20th level challenges pretty darn well.

But not well enough considering the other problems (skills, out of combat options, and even in combat problems as have been described above).

PS. WRT: The SRD lists the DC for manifesting a power while grappling or pinned as 20 rather than 20+level. Is it different in the actual X-PsiHB? I would hope it is.

Where do you have that at? I did a search in my copy of the srd for grapple in the psionic part and for manifest in the other parts, nada. But for spells (which one would assume would be the same) it says 20+ spell level, and the 3.5 psionics handbook agrees.

 

[Scion]

Psychic warrior 20
Human
Hd 20d8+20*con = 193.5
BAB +15
F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +25 R +19 W +22
Bonus feats 8 = Overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psionic talent x6
Feats 7 = psionic talent x 7
Bonus feat 1 = extend power

Skills: (69) Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 23, knowledge (psionics) 10, Search 18

PP = 127 (base) + 90 (feats) + 80 (stat) = 297

Powers
1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Synesthete, (6) metaphysical weapon
2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Strength of my enemy, Body adjustment
3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback
4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption
5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback
6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Form of Doom, Mindblank (personal)

Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
+2 str, +2 wis, +1 dex
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
+ items
Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8

Items: Girdle of giant str +6, amulet of health +6, headband of wisdom +6, gauntlets of dex +6, +4 wisdom book, +4 str book, orange ioun stone, torc of power preservation, cloak of resistance +5, standard of heroism
Studded leather +1, heavy fortification, heartening
Heavy shield +3, animated, heartening
Adamantine ths +1, suppression, wounding
Ring of deflection +4, skin of the defender +4, skin of the troll
Dusty rose ioun stone (+1 insight to ac), pale green (+1 competance to attack, save, skill, ability), Boots of speed


**Adamantine ths +1, body feeder, keen
**Retributive amulet (broken)

Beginning of the day this guy manifests an overchanneled inertial armor (24) +16, overchanneled metaphysical weapon (24) +7, mind blank (10), overchanneled dispelling buffer (10), overchanneled extended synesthete (2), overchanneled extended empathic feedback (24), overchanneled extended steadfast perception (8), overchanneled extended freedom of movement (8), overchanneled extended energy adaption (8), extended adapt body (10)

Refreshing the 8 hour ones takes 50pp each time. Skin of the troll fixes any damage problems.

Total free pp to use for the day: 69

This is actually a pretty significant amount of pp to burn through really. This allows for 5 forms of doom and with it 4 psionic lions charge at +2 and one at +1 damage for each attack, which isnt too bad really. Elsewise some of these can be burned to regain hp through hostile transfer or body adjustment. Or just form of doom 5 times and psionic lions charge 3 times.

AC: 10 + 16 (armor bonus) + 5 (dex) + 5 (shield) + 4 (deflection) +1 (insight) +4 (natural) = 45
Attack: 15 + 8 (str) + 7 (weapon) + 2 (morale) + 1 (circumstance) = 33
Damage: 2d6 + 12 + 7 + 1 con = avg 26 + 1 con + suppression

When hasted:
AC: 46
Attack: +34/+34/+29/+24
Damage: avg 26+1con+suppression

With form of doom and hasted:
AC: 51
Attack: +36/+36/+31/+26
+24/+24/+24/+24
Damage: avg damage 29 + 1 con + suppression
avg 14

Vs the standard body of ac 35 guy, +35 attack, and 300 hp.

Pop up form of doom and haste. Monster attacks, 35% on charge, DR 5/-, 5.675 damage. Psychic warrior attacks 95%/95%/85%/60% then 50%/50%/50%/50%. 8 attacks is fun! 106.865 + 3.35 con damage + 29.4 = 136.265 + 3.35 con damage.

Monster full attack 25%/5%/5%/5% 10.2 damage. Full attack for 136.265 + 3.35 con damage. I think that pretty well kills the guy, 272.530 + 6.7 con + whatever from empathic feedback should easily do so.

At this rate, and with 193.5 hp to fall back on, he could fight these guys all day long.

Vs mister balor the situation is a little different, his DR is high enough that the extra attacks from the form arent likely to do any damage above and beyond the first round (if a lions charge is pumped up, which could allow the slaying of him on the first round, with a little luck and a massive input of pp.. if you want to see the math I'll work it out, but if you simply remember the massive bonus to damage for each hit that should help right there.)

Other than that though the battle will work out a lot like the sample one above, but with the empathic damage actually taken into account rather than ignored. That should make up for part of the difference in damage, con loss should do the rest.

Vs the dragon the psychic warrior doesnt even have half of his hp, but his ac is high enough to make it miss on occasion and con damage against that guy really does some harm (34 hd means that it averages 17 damage per hit extra)

So while he still doesnt have much of a chance, being able to push through over a hundred points of damage a round and being able to live for several rounds means that he might just be able to take it out.

As for all of the other things (adaptability, mobility, etc) that stayed the same. He still has all of the same things and fall back plans. Of course the fall back plans cut into his uses of form of doom, but if it keeps him alive then that simply makes it am good plan.

So there he is. The changes were mainly cosmetic in nature and putting in a couple of items that I had overlooked before that are important for fighter types. I would redo his skills a bit but I am too tired for now.

Edit: changed the DR error, looking for powers to replace the ones that arent useful, and I thought of something new: Form of doom on the psicyrstal as well! Anyone know how having hardness AND DR works?

 

[Scion]

the ** are items I was thinking about getting.. trading one weapon for the other, it would be interesting at least. But the amulet is horribly broken, just like the cloak that someone posted for some other fighter (immunity to nonmagical weapons, they are destroyed, and a nearly automatic reflex save for half damage from magical weapons)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

WRT: Close Quarters Fighting:

Note that your post, which I quoted, made it sound like you could pull that off for each grapple check. It obviously wasnt what you meant but since I didnt have the book at the time and didnt know what the feat did I had to take your word for it. But then to find out it is actually very limited was a bit of a letdown.

Hmm. With Combat Reflexes, he actually does get to do it against the first four grapple checks every round. There are very few times I've seen anyone subjected to more than that. It doesn't help once you're in a grapple but it's still a really good feat. I'd even go so far as to say it's not really an optional feat for mid-high level fighters. They should all have it.

I would like to see how a dedicated grappling specialist deals with it. But it is a nice feat.

Close Quarters Fighting and Freedom of Movement are two reasons dedicated grappling specialists need a backup plan. Dedicated grappling specialists who don't have a backup plan could try to deal with it several ways:
1. Draw an attack of opportunity by doing something else and hope that the creature doesn't have combat reflexes.
2. Draw several attacks of opportunity and hope that you (or your allies) can run out the character's dex bonus.
3. Fight Defensively and use combat expertise to make sure the AoO misses. This only works if you've got a good AC to begin with.
4. Try to amass a higher grapple check. than the other character's damage+grapple check. This one's pretty hard when you're going up against a fighter with a two-handed weapon. However, with a one-handed weapon it's a lot easier. If you have magic, ray of enfeeblement and ray of exhaustion can work against the creature too.

Again though, I see it as a pretty small issue. Sortof like a feat that negates the +1 from high ground. But this is from my own experience and reinforced by the rule (which I dont believe you have quoted yet) that negates many attacks. Even dedicated grappling monsters would seem to be dumb to grapple a good portion of the time, which is very odd indeed.

Monster Manual Glossary, the description of Rake. The SRD says:

"Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with
a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same
turn."

Anyway, I see foes use grapple a lot. It can be bad if it's a single foe against a large party but foes who can control the terrain, restrict their foes mobilitiy, who want to shut down a spellcaster or rogue, who want to keep their foes from escaping, or who are having trouble hitting but are bigger and stronger than the target all find it advantageous to grapple. Grapple is also a very good setup maneuver. A good grappler takes one foe out of the combat and keeps him there and allows all of his allies to beat on him.

As for creatures, Assassin vines, Shambling Mounds, and Tendriculos are some of the deadliest low-CR critters out there. At higher CRs, there's Bigby's Grasping Hand which has been known to completely destroy encounters. There's also the snatch feat (which functions like Improved Grab), collossal earth elemental monstrous scorpions, any creature with swallow whole, dire lions, dire tigers, dire bears, annis hags, and a whole host of such creatures. Any time you face a summoner, you're likely to see grapple at work.

Of course being invisible negates it

Unless you can see Invisible.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

PS. WRT: The SRD lists the DC for manifesting a power while grappling or pinned as 20 rather than 20+level. Is it different in the actual X-PsiHB? I would hope it is.

Where do you have that at? I did a search in my copy of the srd for grapple in the psionic part and for manifest in the other parts, nada. But for spells (which one would assume would be the same) it says 20+ spell level, and the 3.5 psionics handbook agrees.

Mine says it in the Psionic Skills section under concentration. I'm glad to hear that it's an error. Otherwise, it would have made no sense at all.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I have been. First round manifest form of doom and expansion, fighter moves up and attacks. Second round psionic lions charge make full attack, fighter makes full attack.

So the fighter is ahead by 1 standard action but the psychic warrior is fully buffed. I may not have made it entirely clear, it was to me (since both combatants were getting full attacks) but I suppose it may not have been to others. Did everyone simply assume the combatants start at arms length every time? I even gave the fighter the benefit of the doubt that he could get up to the baddy, even with his horrible movement rate.

I had been assuming that combatants started out at arms length every time based on the assume full attacks section of the first section.

As for the attack ratio, I would think the smart thing would be for the fighter to delay and wait for the opponent to charge him, then unload on it once it is done. Dealing with a foe who doesn't want to close is a different challenge that your PsyWar (despite his decent movement rate and Lion's chage) doesn't really address. Unless I'm missing anything, I don't see any means of flying so I think it's reasonable to assume that the balor, dragon, etc want to engage in melee combat.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One compliment and one nit-pick before I sign off for the day Scion.

First, kduos for what may be history's first min-max build that wears studded leather armor. That's something you don't see every day.

Second, I think you're doing DR wrong in your average damage/round calculations. By my count, you take 35% chance of hitting * 25.5 damage [that is average of 3d6+20 -5 DR) = 8.925 damage. Since DR does nothing to reduce the damage of attacks that don't actually hit, the DR has to come off the average damage before it's multiplied by the chance to hit. Doing it the other way around makes it seem a lot better than it really is.

 

[Scion]

So rake has a heavy crossbow rule? gah, that is just insane. I dislike it greatly when the rules do such things.

Odd though that you can use both claws, but you cant use a claw and a bite, they are seperate appendages.. but no one said the rules had to make good physical sense

Good point about the DR, I did the post around 1am, I'll go back and redo the numbers in a bit.

I dislike assuming starting at arms distance, that makes the scenario ignore quite a few mitigating factors. So far most distances have been ignored, as well with foes who like to stay at range. Melee brute vs melee brute both starting in melee.. that sort of thing seems very odd to me, even as a simulation. Hence starting outside of arms range. I havent cared about making the psychic warrior able to deal with such things outside of dim door onto their back. Any suggestions? there are a few powers which we have just been told are mostly useless (expansion, all it is good for is reach at this point, and not with the primary attack power), and a few others that are proving to be not very useful. These can be swapped out to help with problem areas.

As for the fighter waiting for the monster to attack him, while you have flying creatures on the ground you want to attack them right then. Once they get into the air they have a massive advantage. Also, creatures might have more range than you and so still be out of your range after attacking, which means that since your guy has spring attack I figured he would want to get up close and personal as fast as possible to keep the bad guys from doing things he couldnt deal with and to use one of his feats. Seemed like a good plan for him really.

 

[Scion]

I forgot to put up something very important, the psicrystal! I spent a feat on it, might as well put it up.

Diminutive Construct
HD: 20 (96.75 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft, climb 20ft*
AC: 25 (+4 size, +2 dex*, +9 natural)
BAB/Grapple: (I dont know what to put here, it says +0/-17, but it is a construct and it does have hd, 20 of them in fact, which should make it +15/-2, my guess is that since it has no attack naturally it is left as +0, but if it did have one it would be +15)
Attack: -
Full Attack: -
Space/Reach: 1ft/0ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct traits, hardness 8, psicrystal granted abilities (improved evasion, personality, self propulsion, shared powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech, flight, power resistance, sight link, channel power)
Saves: as masters (F +17 R +11 W +14)
Abilities: Str 1* Dex 15* Con - Int 15 Wis 10 Cha 10
Skills: Climb +14*, Listen +6, Move silently +6, Search +2, Spot +6 (these are what are given in its writeup, but it actually has all the same ranks as the psychic warrior, with a minimum of 4 ranks in spot, listen, move silently, and search)
Feats: Alertness

*=with self propulsion activated

With shared powers all of them that the psychic warrior has on himself are also on the psicrystal. This makes the psicrytal up for being a combatant sometimes, although not a very good one.

Mainly this would allow it to have an even higher spot check and give boosts here and there when needed. It also might take a hit or two when it starts attacking (form of doom would give it 4 attacks! ) which vs its hardness of 8 and DR 5/- it would be able to absorb a pretty good amount of damage. Any attacks taken away from the psychic warrior means a longer time he can fight that day. (although at 2d8+1/2 str mod it wont be doing a lot of damage with any hits, sort of like the gnat biting at your heel..lol.. still a very cool visual!)

Also, through getting alertness the psychic warriors spot check becomes +25. That is not too shabby!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

So rake has a heavy crossbow rule? gah, that is just insane. I dislike it greatly when the rules do such things.

Odd though that you can use both claws, but you cant use a claw and a bite, they are seperate appendages.. but no one said the rules had to make good physical sense

You can't use both claws as a general rule. Most of the time, a creature with Rake gains two extra claw attacks in addition to any grapple checks they would normally make. Often (as in the case of the dire lion) the ordinary grapple checks will be made with bite damage. The annis hag is an exception--her rake ability seems to mostly be there to let her rend inside a grapple.