Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Majere]

E-B, you've done a great job posting a lot of hard numbers and doing a lot of analysis of various scenarios and dangers/weaknesses. Thanks for the education. If nothing else, this thread has proven to me definitively that threads debunking the fighter at high levels are mostly exaggeration. Is the fighter the least versatile class in the game? Quite possibly. He kills stuff, and that's pretty much it. But within that narrow field, he is very, very effective.

Now if I could just convince you to do the same write-up of a paladin.

Bah I was going to do the write up of a paladin but as I seem to be invisible to everyone I shant so
On a more serious note paladins tend to rely on the initial punch of their charge which can make the numbers harder to quantify, if the monster charges you you lose alot of that kick. But if people wanna see on paladin, I could write one up. Anyone to second this vote ?

Majere

 

[Scion]

what would be the use of a paladin build in a thread about fighters and psychic warriors?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

what would be the use of a paladin build in a thread about fighters and psychic warriors?

It wouldn't be germane to the topic but it would be interesting in another thread. It would also provide some perspective on both the fighter and the psywar's capabilities vis a vis another class.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

what would be the use of a paladin build in a thread about fighters and psychic warriors?

Probably none at all. But since I currently play one, it'd be nice to see what a real statmaster could do with one. Which is to say I wasn't really suggesting it to further the discussion in the thread, but for pure personal gain.

 

[Scion]

another thread, sure, go for it. You can even post a link to said thread in this one

 

[Scion]

Now for something a little bit different. It works pretty heavily off of a couple smackdown threads, but my feat list is very different. Getting hit and hitting back hard is the name of the game for this guy.

Psychic warrior 20
HD 20d8+20*con = 233.5
BAB +15
F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +24 R +14 W +17

Bonus feats 8 = Psicrystal affinity, improved sunder, improved bull rush, combat brute, shock trooper, reckless offense, overchannel, talented
Feats 7 weapon focus (claw), improved natural attack (claw), improved crit (claw), dodge, combat reflexes, karmic strike, power attack
Bonus feat 1 = extend power

Skills: (115) with this many skill points just pick useful things, little of it matters for any point of this thread.
PP = 127 (base) + 60 (stat) = 187

Powers:
1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Claws of the Beast, (6) metaphysical claw
2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Prowess, Body adjustment
3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback, (6) claws of the vampire
4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption
5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback
6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Mindblank (personal)

Str 9, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 8
+3 con, + 1 wis
Str 9, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
+ items
Str 20, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8
in gray glutton form
Str 38, Dex 20, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8
Expanded twice
Str 42, Dex 16, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8

Gray Glutton
Huge Magical beast (humanoid like in form however)
Speed 40'
AC: +13 natural, -1 dex
Space/Reach: 15'/10'
Abilities: Str: 27, Dex 9, Con 19
Feats: Track (racial)

Items: Girdle of giant strength +6 (36k), gloves of dexterity +6 (36k), orange ioun stone (30k), cloak of resistance +5 (25k), book of str +5 (137.5k), torc of psionic preservation (36k), book of dex +5 (137.5k), headband of wisdom +6 (36k), boots of speed (12k), pink rhomboid +2 enhancement to con (8k), book of con +4 (110k), skin of the proteus (84k), ring of regen (90k)

Over by 18k, because of the ring of regen. Anyone else think that this item is horribly overpriced?

Activate skin of proteus, turn into gray glutton. Pop up inertial armor (24). Manifest claws in the morning for the full day (18). At base they deal 5d6, increased to 6d6 from improved natural attack per claw.

Expansion once: 8d6
Expansion twice: 12d6

With gray glutton, damage starts at 8d6, 12d6 with feat.
Expansion once: 16d6
Expansion twice: 24d6

Place a metaphysical claw on each one (24 each)

90 pp used so far. 97 remaining.

Dispelling buffer all day takes 10 pp. Leaving 87.

Putting up a twice expansion takes 8 pp or 14 if quickened. So it can be done in one round if necissary. Extended overchanneled expansion lasts for 8 hours each time for a cost of 10 pp. 30 pp a day and it is set.

57 points left for the day. These can be used for whatever power is deemed necissary at the time.

AC: 10 -2 (size) +3 (dex) +13 (natural) + 16 (armor) = 40
Attack: 15 -2 (size) +16 (str) + 7 (meta claws) +1 (weapon focus) = +37
Damage: 24d6 +16 (str) +7 (meta claws) = avg 107 (not counting crits, which he has improved crit so it would add a bit of damage)


Against 35 ac, +35 attack, 300 hp opponent.

First round, either the oppoent charges up or the psychic warior charges them. With a reach of 25 feet it would be interesting to see how that works out.

We'll go straight to full attacks though.

Activate boots of haste (I am assuming that the extra attack is gained, I see no useful reason why it would not). Attack 3 times. Bad guy is dead. Putting up karmic strick and reckless attack ahead of time and dropping 5 points into power attack just makes the guy even more dead.

If the other guy goes first he has 5%/5%/5%/5% chance to hit doing an average damage of 6.1 damage.

Defeating a nearly endless supply of these guys would be almost childs play


This build is much less useful over all than the last one, but it still has most of the same options to put up just in case. There really wasnt anything to change most of them to, the pickings were just too slim.

In combat against a very tough opponent this guy can destroy the weapon they are useing and cleave off of it into the person, or he can bullrush the opponent quite a ways, gaining a massive bonus to the next round of attacks or being able to charge and then next round dump all of the penalty from a full power attack into an ac penalty. Slaughter.

This guy is much less fun in my opinion, but he is a pretty massive power. Of course he is pretty much worthless anywhere that doesnt have 20' clearance for him (he'll be squeezed, but a penalty to his ac works for him more than it hinders). He also does not have the protective powers up most of the time.. if he is worried about something they go up, otherwise they do not (mindblank is probably a daily thing more of the time, but I didnt bother to count it here).

mmmm.. str of 42...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I was looking forward to seeing a claws build. However, I think there are a few issues with this one:

Putting up a twice expansion takes 8 pp or 14 if quickened. So it can be done in one round if necissary. Extended overchanneled expansion lasts for 8 hours each time for a cost of 10 pp. 30 pp a day and it is set.

I'm not quite sure where you get this from. Is this another difference between the SRD and the actual XPsiHB? The SRD for Expansion reads:

Expansion
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic warrior 1
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round./level (D)
Power Points: 1
This power causes instant growth, doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –1 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
If your new size is Large or larger, you have a space of at least 10 feet and a natural reach of at least 10 feet. This power doesn’t change your speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, you attain the maximum possible size and can make a Strength check (using your increased Strength score) to burst any enclosures in the process. If you fail, you are constrained without harm by the materials enclosing you—you cannot crush yourself to death by increasing your size.
All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage.
Other psionic or magical properties are not affected by this power. Any affected item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.
Augment: You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action.
3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 minute per level rather than 1 round per level.

So, by my count, 7pp would buys an overpowered double expansion for 24 rounds, 9pp buys an overchanneled double expansion for 24 minutes, and 11pp buys an overchanneled double expansion for 48 minutes. That's a solid duration but it's not even close to the 8 hours for 10pp you're claiming above. 8 hours would take 110pp.

The second problem is the use of the expansion power in conjunction with the skin of Proteus for the huge form. At the end of the description, the power states that:

Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.

If you consider metamorphasis to be an effect that increases size--which it certainly appears to be in this case--then you can't stack expansion with metamorphosis.

The last problem is a potential one but it would be with the skin of Proteus itself which has a manifester level of 7. Again, according to the SRD:

The assumed form can have as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15.

I don't know what book the Gray Glutton comes from and you didn't list its HD, but the trick only works if the Gray Glutton has 7HD or less. (And if it does have that few HD, I'm mighty surprised. The huge creatures in the MM generally have a lot more than that--7HD is barely into troll or hag territory).

But that skin of Proteus--hooo boy does that look abusable. I may have to post a fighter specifically designed to abuse he heck out of it. If the Gray Glutton is a legal form, so much the better.

 

[Scion]

I was looking forward to seeing a claws build. However, I think there are a few issues with this one:
I'm not quite sure where you get this from. Is this another difference between the SRD and the actual XPsiHB? The SRD for Expansion reads:

Hey basalisk, I am afraid that you are making the classic 'didnt check the errata' mistake.

Errata for 3.5 psionics handbook:
Page 105-106: Expansion Power
The third option for augmenting the power should read
as follows:
3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s
duration is 10 minutes per level rather than 1 round per
level.

So for a mere 2 pp it goes pu to 10 minutes per level, very nice!

The second problem is the use of the expansion power in conjunction with the skin of Proteus for the huge form. At the end of the description, the power states that:
If you consider metamorphasis to be an effect that increases size--which it certainly appears to be in this case--then you can't stack expansion with metamorphosis.

As with polymorph and metamorphosis both, changing to a new form does not change your size. It doesnt matter what size you started as and what your new form is, you are now that new form. If the new form happens to have a different size than your last one it doesnt matter, your new form is whatever size it is.

That is why druids can wildshape into an animal of any size allowed by their level and still be able to use animal growth on themselves to become even larger.

The same goes for expansion, metamorphosis is not an effect that increases your size. It gives you a new form. Very big difference.

The last problem is a potential one but it would be with the skin of Proteus itself which has a manifester level of 7. Again, according to the SRD:

I don't know what book the Gray Glutton comes from and you didn't list its HD, but the trick only works if the Gray Glutton has 7HD or less. (And if it does have that few HD, I'm mighty surprised. The huge creatures in the MM generally have a lot more than that--7HD is barely into troll or hag territory).

But that skin of Proteus--hooo boy does that look abusable. I may have to post a fighter specifically designed to abuse he heck out of it. If the Gray Glutton is a legal form, so much the better.

That is true enough, I didnt notice about the very low manifestor level. Odd that though, for the sheer price of it they could have at least made it 10 or something.

The gray glutton is 9hd and in the psionics handbook.

I can get around this problem in a couple of ways, either handwave it away saying that my buddy made it for me and it is of a higher manifestor level, or that when it was found it was higher level (I highly doubt that only level 7 people make these things).

Or, I can simply drop one of my feats, pick up the power, and bit the bullet to use it that way like I had it set up before I found the skin.

I suppose the second would be more useful to this thread, but I'll go for the first and have you make up your own abominable fighter. If someone wants me to put up the altered version who uses the power instead I might go back through and do it Although fair warning, it worked off of stacking extends (I have yet to be able to find anything that disallows metapsionics from stacking with themselves.. it is difficult enough to do anyway).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, if nothing else, I'm learning what's broken or dramatically underpriced about psionics in this thread.

There's no way that the skin of Proteus is properly priced--and even less if you allow it to be made at higher manifester level. It should be three to four times the price. It's effectively unlimited healing (you heal as though resting one day every time you shift forms), unlimited lesser restoration (ability damage heals on that day/shift as well), and, even as written, troll or annis hag form. Let it be created at higher manifester levels and you'll see athachs and stone giants on a regular basis.

And Expansion? It was better balanced at 1 min/level augmented. Ten minutes/level raises the specter we've got here: 24 hour expanded characters.

From the last build, Empathic Feedback needs to allow PR, should probably be typed, and should be more expensive to augment. Either that, or it should allow PR but have a much shorter duration--1 minute or even 1 round/level like Fire Shield.

And, metapsionic feats shouldn't stack with themselves any more than metamagic feats do. (Lets not imagine the hideousness that one could get by stacking empowers on an energy ball--or worse yet, an energy ray (no save to worry about, and therefore no opportunity cost for using metapsionics instead of augmentation).

 

[Scion]

I see no reason why skin of the proteus would heal anything, it simply works as if you have it continuously on, not that it manifests it on you at any time.

So no healing.

It is already 84k, even allowing for higher manifestor level (which can be done with any item in the dmg or psionics handbook) that is still a lot of money and it takes up a slot. Even the build above doesnt really abuse it by much, as I said in the thread I could do the same by spending a single feat really. 84k to replace a feat and some pp doesnt seem too horrible. If its cost is increased then to what and why?

If you will notice the only powers I really try to use are ones that have a real duration, or are incredible for a short durtaion. Making lots of spells/powers too short of a duration to be useful is a continuing theme of 3.5, I was actually surprised enough had durations long enough to actually be useful (1 min/level is not long enough to be useful).

While I agree that empathic feedback should allow for SR it definately should not be typed. If it is typed then it could not bypass regen, which is one of the nice side effects of the power. Having a shorter duration would again make it worthless. If you wish to prove the fighter is good in comparison by taking away every useful power then something is seriously wrong.

Being effective and useful is not the same as overpowered or broken.

The first build dumped a 'ton' of pp into the empathic feedback to make it useful. So therefore it should be useful. 1 minute / level or less is useless. This is because the character needs several buffs up at once to become worthwhile, so with a very limited amount of actions and a similarly limited number of pp the durations must be sufficient to be used.

Even then though, we are talking about the maximum level of ability here, dumping many feats into it, and pooling a ton of resources simply to make it able to be done. Even then it 'only' works at level 20.

I see nothing overpowered in that at all.

How many feats, time, and money does one have to dump into something before it is allowed to be useful?

Also, metapsionic feats stack with themselves unless you can find something to state otherwise.

Note, in order to be able to do that at all you have to have 2 focus at the same time, so you need to have psicrystal, psicrystal containment, whatever metapsionic feat, 2 focus up, and enough pp to use the ability.

It takes a great deal of resources to do this, if at very high levels it allows one to expend a huge amount of resources in order to gain some benefit then cool, nothing wrong with that either.