Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Scion]

Not really. It's really a problem with unlimited duration polymorph-like spells and powers. I also have a problem with dumping physical stats on the basis of an assumption that the character will always be polymorphed (which is what unlimited duration polymorph effects allow). This is particularly problematic in comparisons like this where low-level survivability isn't an issue.

While dumping stats early for later plans is definately not an incredible way to go (in fact, in general terms without another plan in mind it is dumb) it really only works in comparisons like this. In a real game it wouldnt be an issue.

Although, the psychic warrior I made had low str and dex to begin with he would work fine from the ground up, even low levels. His main abilities would be to pop up the claws and swing away with them. They have low damage, but being able to swing twice in a round from early on would make him pretty viable. (psionic body + overchannel + talented would net an extra 6hp at first level and allow for his abilities to work longer.. 2 hours of claws at first level is good, plus an extra level of duration for whatever other powers might need put up)

Even with your build, who is incredibly min/maxed for just this sort of eventuality, isnt all that bad. He is rough and tumble and good at fighting, just like a fighter should be. If he was slightly less min/maxed (as in, you actually wanted to survive your first couple of levels and so put a few extra points into str and/or dex) then he drops down a bit into reasonable character territory.

He has a high ac, but not that much higher than your other guy already had. He is good at grappling and can take out melee brutes better than your other guy (but then your other guy relied on not getting into grapples and spent a feat to help with that anyway so a bit of a wash).

At 1 min/level and with the HD cap, I don't really have a difficulty with polymorph spells as such.

I do. With this change they have been relegated to combat use only. I would have much prefered a reduction in choices and a longer duration (or the same old duration).

1 minute/level they have to be very good for what it does, but for normal characters it is just a general buff.

The skin itself costs 80k gp. Not exactly shabby, although it can be very good to certain builds (and worthless for others). How exactly does one price an item that is incredible for some builds and useless for others? Costing more than +9 armor (and taking up a slot) doesnt seem like a horrible place to start.

Your guy really has to worry about it being dispelled (even if that sort of thing doesnt happen very easily) because your armor and weapon are both sized for large creatures. Effectively you would suddenly be much lower in power for d4 rounds + time to activate + time to put armor back on.

Yes and no. How many pps does the PsyWar have to spend to be polymorphed each day at 7pp/21 minutes, 9pp/ 41 minutes, or 9pp and some damage/48 minutes? I'm calculating it at a minimum of 270pp/day in order to keep it active 24 hours. (And note that the power is far more vulnerable to dispelling than the skin is since the skin would have to be recognized and individually targetted but the power is eligible for dispelling on a targetted or area dispel). I suspect that the build would be much less efficient if it were forced to use the power rather than the skin.

The psychic warrior wouldnt need to keep it up all 24 hours, merely every now and then as needed. I put the other build at 24 hours because it is much more fun that way (and I dislike reconfiguring stats every few minutes).

Still though, base time is manifestor level in minutes (overchannel is practically free here as the power heals roughly the same as overchannel hurts), then, if needed, dual extend (as it is allowed by the rules, I have yet to see a reason to disallow it even for magic, if they were that worried about spells lasting more than 24 hours simply putting a hardcap on certain things would've solved the problem.. much like cure light wounds does d8+5 at max) it will last for over an hour and takes a standard action to put into place. But it only takes 11 pp. Which is the same amount that a 36k crystal has.

A couple more notes on the comparison:
1. I think there's a good Power Attack+Great Cleave+Shock Trooper+Combat Brute+Powerful Charge+Speed of Though+Psionic Charge [+Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target to avoid power attack reprisals] PsyWar build out there that would use a maximally augmented Psionic Lion's Charge (quite possibly in combination with Form of Doom if there were time to prepare) and full power attack (reducing AC instead of atk with Shock Trooper) to make a full attack with +41 damage on each one handed weapon or natural attack and +61 damage on each two handed weapon from Power Attack and Psionic Lion's Charge. (Speed of Thought and Psionic Charge are to get around the extremely limiting 3.5 charge rules). Such a character could Great Cleave pit fiends without getting particularly lucky--especially if he had Form of Doom up. And if he doesn't kill everything he charged, he's still got x1.5 or x3 power attack on the next round, courtesy of Combat Brute's Momentum Swing.

So this is saying that psychic warriors are good when they blast out a bunch of pp? ok, yep. I think that has been shown by each of the builds so far

(Skin of the Proteus and Centaur form to use the mounted combat feats to multiply damage on the full attack would be even more broken--Spirited Charge with the +7 metaphysical weapon and a 30 strength for +249 damage on each attack with a large lance wielded in two hands).

Mounted combat feats? as a centaur? Well, not in my games, you arent mounted you are 'the mount'. Still, this is no different than simply having a mount and not the skin of the proteus so what is the point exactly?

If there is some rule somewhere that says you can use mounted combat feats while not mounted let me know (archers get a penalty while mounted, does this mean that anything that can be mounted gets a penalty? centaurs would hate that extra penalty I am sure)

2. I think we've moved beyond making "viable" builds to full-fledged smackdown builds here (even if we are limited to single-class characters). I suspect that, even though these characters could probably be improved by multiclassing they're reaching into the same ballpark as hyper-optimized characters. Having more options between psionic feats and powers means that there is more range for PsyWars to be either further above or further below the power curve for a "typical" 20th level character than a fighter. In that sense, the PsyWar "kicks more butt." On the other hand, I don't think Fighters have any trouble staying at or even reaching above the power curve for a "typical" 20th level character. Even so, fighters are better suited to team play than to solo play while PsyWar characters can probably handle solo play more easily.

Of course the psychic warrior was based after the fighter in a lot of ways. As I said in the other thread, if the two classes come out about equal overall for combat potential then that means the psychic warrior needs some boosting.

so it looks like a fighter can be useful in combat when he has enough feat sources and is min/maxed to incredible lengths. Which is basically what I said before, not a good class

Oh, and how did you like the expert? lol

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A few questions about the build that I am not seeing right off:

Avg damage
3d6+5 (weapon)+24 (str)+4 (2 ws)+40 (full power attack) = avg 83.5
You put down 134.5. Even taking into account crits the damage doesnt come anywher near that, even maxed out. Where am I missing some extra damage points?

I just plugged it into the calculator--I see my problem though. I must have forgotten to change haste to 3.5 rather than 3.0. The real numbers will probably be between 87 and 60 for the single attack. For full attacks, it shouldn't make a difference though because 3.0 haste granted an extra attack action that could be used to make a single attack at the character's highest attack bonus and 3.5 grants an extra attack at the highest attack bonus on a full attack action so if you're just calculating damage for full attacks, it should be the same. Even with the reduced numbers, the only foe to survive the first full attack is the dragon. The pit fiend would survive if it had the balor's hit points but it doesn't so it gets killed.

You are only size large so I dont see how you have all of the superiority you are claiming for reach. It is the most minimal amount and reach can be avoided in a number of ways, high level characters will tend to ignore reach a good portion of the time.

Even when you're 14th to 15th level having 10' reach is good--if only because it evens the playing field with other large foes. However, by wielding a reach weapon, that reach could be extended to 20'. And 20' reach is better than the dragon has with any natural weapon other than its bite.

Also, you are sitting pretty at about 800k right now, adding on extra pearls of power is a bit out of the question

You clearly misread the note about pearls of power. If the character replaces his +5 holy sword with a +1 holy sword, a pearl of power 3, and a lesser rod of extend spell, he can have the effect of a +5 sword for 31k instead of 98k. Because of the possibility of off-loading a lot of his expensive armor and weapon enhancements into pearls of power, I'm not particularly concerned about being 40k over budget (though I was trying to stick to the amount and apparently miscalculated). To make the comparison fair, dropping the heavy fortification enhancement on his armor should more than make up the difference.

Also, comparing to what your other character had you have 6 higher AC but a lower touch ac. All of that difference can be eliminated by your other character useing his charge of alter self.

True. However, that ignores the fact that this character is more maximized for damage than for AC. He could wear mithral armor and use the form of a stone giant to improve his AC by several more points.

First off, your new con does not change your hp. As per the raw (both as written in the core books and as the errata to the dmg, no we dont know why it was put into the dmg, states) The 'rules of the game' articles have way too many errors to be truely decissive ;/ Especially when they fly in the face of the errata.

The Rules of the Game articles do indeed have too many errors to be decisive in this regard, however, even the DMG erratta can be interpreted to mean that base[/i] hit points don't change so, for instance if a 7th level wizard changes into a 7 HD dragon, he doesn't re-roll his 7 HD using d12s. I'm still not convinced that con changes don't change hit points. Not that it matters too much. Dumping the 5 stat increases from level into con instead of wisdom puts him in exactly the same place that the fire giant's con is anyway.

Changing into an ettin does you little to no good, as you wont gain its special qualities (as per the description of metamorphosis). I also dont see how a few of those other forms you list will help you at all, generally they have lesser/equal abilities to the one form you did pick to stat out. Especially if you change into the gray glutton as you will lose str and your weapon will be of the wrong size for your form.

I'll take your word on the ettin thing. Briefly glancing at the description, I thought it was listed as a special attack. As for the other forms, you're right that their balance of abilities is generally inferior to the fire giant's--that's why fire giant is the default form. However, there are a number of reasons to prefer them:

Annis hag: better natural armor, better dex, improved grab, and rake. If you want to stop a mounted or mobile combatant, Annis is a better form than fire giant.

Frost Giant: Immune to cold and vulnerable to fire. If you're fighting something that uses cold more than fire (white dragons, ice devils, a sorceror with a penchant for cones of cold, etc) it will be rather painful to be a fire giant. A frost giant, on the other hand is immune to their cold attacks.

Stone Giant: Much higher dexterity and natural armor. If you want to tank rather than apply the beatdown, Stone Giant is the form to use.

Gray Glutton: Being huge leads to much better grapple checks. Even after the character's strength goes down, he's still a better grappler. He also can't be snatched by collossal dragons or improved grabbed by huge creatures. That's good in some situations. Having -2 to hit for a mis-sized weapon is a pain but nothing the character couldn't handle.

Athach: This is really only a good form for a different build but being able to wield a two handed weapon (huge greatsword) and a second weapon using TWF could be very useful for specialized dual wounding weapon builds or other builds that pile on the non-strength related damage.

Dragon, etc: additional movement modes are often important.

(For the Aasmar/Tiefling): Planetar has very good natural armor and the ability to fly at high speed with good manueverability. Flying movement has not been addressed in this thread so far but, considering that all of the CR 20 monsters except the Tarrasque can fly, it's likely to be pretty important. It also has good enough dexterity that the shapeshifting Aasmar could function quite well in a mithral breastplate or mithral chain shirt and benefit from better movement and a ring of evasion. (The dex would also come in handy for initiative and combat reflexes). Astral Devas and Trumpet Archons are very good medium forms as well--and the ability to function in tunnels, caverns, and ordinary buildings doesn't suddenly become insignificant when one hits 20th level.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Mounted combat feats? as a centaur? Well, not in my games, you arent mounted you are 'the mount'. Still, this is no different than simply having a mount and not the skin of the proteus so what is the point exactly?

Not too much point except that neither fighters nor PsyWars get any special ability to aquire mounts and most mounts not gained through class abilities are incredibly fragile at level 20. A paladin's warhorse will probably be fine fighting the dragon but even a griffon mounted fighter or PsyWar will be coming to terms with falling damage. The centaur form is a way of getting the double damage mounted charge without relying upon a mount that's going to die as soon as anything on the battlefield blinks.

A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does.

Heck, that makes it worth it right there, even without triple damage for spirited charge (which some DMs extrapolate to allowing based on the rider bit).

Of course the psychic warrior was based after the fighter in a lot of ways. As I said in the other thread, if the two classes come out about equal overall for combat potential then that means the psychic warrior needs some boosting.

so it looks like a fighter can be useful in combat when he has enough feat sources and is min/maxed to incredible lengths. Which is basically what I said before, not a good class.

Ahh yes. Interesting how things (like the original purpose) get lost in the comparison. Other than mounted combat paladins (who are only better than mounted fighters because they can find level appropriate mounts and when they smite evil), I'm of the opinion that fighters are pretty much the equal of any of the other fighting classes in combat and can even dish it out with a cleric who spends all his feats and spells to be good at combat. (And they can do it without spending that first round buffing and the first two rounds casting quickened spells). The comparison seems to end up with the PsyWar looking like a lot of battle cleric builds I've seen in various places. I don't see that it demonstrates that the PsyWar is weak.

Actually, I think this bit may demonstrate that we had different ideas about the purpose of this going in. My perception was that fighters are fine so the comparison will reveal whether PsyWars suck (ie are worse than fighters), are balanced (in the same ballpark as fighters) or are broken (are way better than fighters). Your baseline seems to have been that fighters suck and that therefore, unless the PsyWar is dramatically better than fighters, they suck too. The problem is that, while the methodology of this comparison is fine for testing my question, it can't test both of your assertions (the fighter sucks, and how does the PsyWar compare to the fighter) at the same time. If I build a fighter who doesn't suck, all it would demonstrate to you is that the PsyWar sucks too. (Apparently, the fighter's demonstrated ability to throw down with any of the CR 20 monsters other than the tarrasque doesn't demonstrate his non-suckiness). The only way to test the assertion that that fighters suck would be to compare fighters to various classes whose balance is a known quantity. I had initially perceived your view to be that PsyWars were a known quantity. Now, I realize you don't see them like that.

Oh, and how did you like the expert? lol

Amusing. Perhaps the rule for items should be "if an expert 20 can use this item to win a fight with a dragon, it's probably broken."

 

[Scion]

Still, after all of that min/maxing (and it was a lot) he winds up being only a bit above where the fighter should be normally anyway. A bit less min/maxed and it would be just about perfect. Lots of things can be over min/maxed, but making the rules fall to the lowest common denomenator is bad.

Being able to deal between 60 and 80 points of damage per attack under favorable circumstances is pretty much where they should be anyway (even the guy you just posted doesnt get up that high very easily, having to count on 40 points of damage from power attack is pretty rough).

All in all, it sounds like an ability sortof like the skin is exactly what the fighter needs.. along with a few real skills (knowledge dungeoneering? tactics? whatever skill does that.. how about profession?)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'd go for a few more skills on the fighter. Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty and Profession should be there (not that gaining profession has any effect on the character's power level). I'd be nervous about a knowledge: tactics skill simply because tactics are usually a function of player knowledge, player ability and role playing. If there were a knowledge tactics skill, it would be tempting to try to actually apply it ("well, you failed your knowledge: tactics roll so you can't take that advantageous five foot step to set up the cleave.") However, some kind of large scale "military strategy" skill or something similar that would be useful to generals would be good.

As for your other fighter targets, I wonder where you get them from. 60-80 points of damage per attack is a nifty idea but you won't find barbarians doing that much either. (A maxed strength half-orc barbarian could have a strength of 36 normally (20+5 level +5 inherent+6 item) and that would bring his raging strength up to 44. Even so, with a +5 greatsword, he'd only be doing 2d6+30 (+5 sword, +17 str, +8 1/2 str). Given a fighter with the same stats, he'd be doing 2d6+28 (+5 sword +13 str, +6 1/2 str, +4 greater weapon specialization). A ranger would do more damage against a favored enemy but less against everyone else. A paladin is rather difficult to compare because of the very limited channel into which paladins' class abilities force them. However, it's probably safe to say that he'd do dramatically more on smites and dramatically less the rest of the time but that his mount's attacks and damage would add a bit and that the mounted combat line of feats let everyone do a lot more damage on a single hit.

A typical rogue is probably (lets say 20 strength at 20th level) doing 1d6+10+10d6 sneak attack for an average of 48.5 points of damage per sneak attack at high levels but with his lower attack bonus, he will often have trouble hitting and a lot of high level foes are immune to sneak attacks.

So, I just don't see where you get the idea that characters need to do 60-80 points of damage per hit to be viable. None of the base classes can do that on the basis of class abilities--except a paladin doing a spirited charge smite. Given the perfect weapon for the job, (like, a cold iron Holy Lawful Evil Outsider Bane weapon against the balor), any of them can do it.

 

[Scion]

note that I said, 'tactics? whatever skill does that.' and not, 'knowledge (tactics)' They were all in a row though, that is why I put on the extra part of the sentence at the end. Insufficient punctuation in the english language sometimes, at least for the ways that would make sense while being spoken.

Whatever skill(s) represent overall mass combat tactics the fighters should get it. Even if this is just profession for something like profession (combat tactics). It could even be used to tell what sort of feats someone has used during the battle, but professions usually dont do that.

As for the damage though, there are quite a few things that can be done to up damage. Still though, your analysis there doesnt put in a few points for power attack which pushes up over the edge.. then again, I really like the barbarians 'all power attack, all the time', but that is neither here nor there for this thread. Remember though, crits also count in, which generally add in an extra 10% to the damage. Anything to push that possible damage maximum over the 50 mark. Higher is better.

High level fighter types in proper circumstances (which differ depending on the build) should be dealing over 200 points of damage per round to a single target. There are quite a few builds like this on the maximisation threads, they are usually doing that around level 12 or so

Notice that I said, 'Being able to deal between 60 and 80 points of damage per attack under favorable circumstances is pretty much where they should be anyway (even the guy you just posted doesnt get up that high very easily, having to count on 40 points of damage from power attack is pretty rough).'

Which is very different than, 'So, I just don't see where you get the idea that characters need to do 60-80 points of damage per hit to be viable.'

Especially when we are talking about level 20! Between various feats and abilities getting quite massive amounts of damage, in the proper circumstance, should be childs play. Much like the charging paladin on his mount and dropping something into divine might or something. Done properly not much can survive that. The barb is much better at pretty high consistant damage over many rounds (starting str 16 + 5 level +5 book +6 enhancement +8 rage = 40, can be higher with a couple of simple spells but this thread is more about straight builds. with +20 BAB, +15 str, +5 weapon, +whatever from feats and other items and there should be enough for an easy 5 points of power attack and still hit decently. This puts him at 2d6 + 37 = avg of 44 which is about 48.8 with crits. An extra enhancement on the weapon of some energy damage puts it up at 52.3 and a max of 59.9. not too shabby.. and this is with almost no real min/maxing).

With a few more skills, skill points, and abilities I think that the fighter would be just fine. As it is however... given a big enough pile of feats so that he can pull out the more overpowered ones, or put together an overpowered combo, then he becomes a power house. But that sort of thing does not a good class make, just like the expert above isnt a full blown class for players even though in that form he could take down just about any melee combatant.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Your analysis of the barbarian is true but remember when comparing the fighter and barbarians, the primary difference in damage output/round will be greater weapon focus and specialization vs. rage. The 8 points of strength are worth +4 to hit and +6 to damage with a two-handed weapon, while the fighter's bonuses are worth +2 to hit and +4 to damage with any kind of weapon. Comparing it in the two-handed weapon area of the barbarian's specialty, and assuming that he can reliably power attack for two more than the fighter (because the fighter can power attack too), that puts the barbarian at a six point/hit damage advantage over the fighter. That's it. I'm not convinced it's always worth it.

Looking at the prior builds, it's important to consider that all of the comparisons were against ACs between 35 and 42. Past AC 35, even these fighters and barbarians will often not find it advantageous to power attack for a lot--even the skin of the proteus build I submitted doesn't gain any advantage by power attacking against AC 42. So, if you are looking to hit the 60-80 points of damage/hit mark, I suspect that a barbarian wouldn't do very differently from the characters detailed here. One of the other things that you'll note by comparing my builds with Wog Wog and some of the other builds that were submitted is the amount of money spent on armor, shields, and other defensive items as well as the amount of money my builds spent on enhancement bonusses. The characters were built for a mixture of offense, defense, and damage. Given better weaponry, they would much more easily reach the targets you're setting just like the barbarian reaches that level. However, one of the valuable things about the calculate whole characters aspect of the thread was in demonstrating the opportunity cost of all that. No D&D character can afford everything he wants. The 20th level fighter can buy a +10 equivalent weapon, some really nifty +10 equivalent armor, a +5 book for strength, +6 items for his physical stats, a +5 amulet of natural armor and ring of protection, and a +10 equivalent shield, he's pretty much out of cash. If the character wants the benefit of a helm of teleportation, the defense of a +5 cloak of resistance, the flexibility of a ring of spell storing, boots of speed, winged boots, a backup weapon, stone of good luck, luckblade, standard of heroism, or anything else, he's got to make some sacrifices. I suspect you'd find that the same is true of barbarians if you attempted to do a similar comparison for them. By the time you actually got down to running the numbers, scaling the weapon enhancements and strength bonusses to meet the 60-80 points of damage per hit mark would come at pretty a pretty painful cost in terms of the character's vulnerabilities and other capabilities--even for a barbarian, much less for a ranger or non-smiting, non-charging, or non-mounted paladin.

When it comes down to it, I think that your complaints boil down to the fighter's skill list and skill points--not his ability to dish out and soak up damage.

 

[Scion]

That was not a comparison of fighter vs barb, merely a simple build that puts the damage up that high. It wasnt even really min/maxed. A starting str of 16 is just common sense for a melee fighter who isnt doing twf. Just a basic build without any other useful forms being put into play.

The barb has a list of abilities. Extra skill points, extra hp, extra abilities.. it is a pretty impressive list overall.

No one has put up a well made barb build on here, maybe someone will.

Effectively the fighter has 11 bonus feats vs a barbs +1hp/level, 2x as many skill points, much better skill list, and a list of special abilities that work wonders in combat. I could convert them to feats but that wouldnt be terribly helpful. Someone really should put up a good build for them.

Also, the builds I put up for the psychic warrior seemed pretty damning to the fighter. The first one (remade) is simply better in pretty much every situation and can be for quite a few battles in a day. Vs important battles (such as the dragon) he could go all out and might just win. The fighter has no such resources to fall back on, which makes him the weaker class in many ways.

Effectively, the damage I listed before should be well within the range for a primary melee combatant. Along with having other combat options.

The changes to make the fighter what he should be are not huge and far reaching, as I have said both in this thread and the other, but they are needed.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Then there's a real disconnect between what you say the problems are and your proposed solutions.

The solutions: a few more skill points and a few flavor skills added to the fighter's skill list. (Somehow I doubt any kind of tactics skill, knowledge dungeoneering, or profession would have figured into any of the evaluations here).

The problem--according to you: Fighters have no "crank it to 11" abilities (though for the purposes of fighter/barbarian comparisons, barbarians really don't have any either since such comparisons generally assume that the barbarian is raging), they can't deal damage and really need to have something like a 24 hour/day polymorph to fire giant ability just to not suck.

So, if the problem is that a PsyWar is better in every aspect and every way (which IMO, he's not) giving the fighter two more skill points per level and some flavor skills won't cut it. If the changes are not huge and far reaching then you're wrong about the problem. If you're right about the problem, the changes would have to be huge and far reaching.

 

[Scion]

I have no idea why you keep focusing on that, even though I keep on pointing out problems and possible solutions that also differ from that greatly.

Apparently you have skill points too much on the brain, I bring it up because it is important, but it is not the only thing they need by far.

The same sort of things have been said over and over.

Your fighter builds have had to 'crank it to 11' with a list of feats and such. Which is all well and good, that is what Complete Warrior is for after all.

The psychic warrior build is also cranked, but then its spot and listen checks were insane in comparison to the fighters, he could work in pretty much any environment for as long as needed, pull out all the stops when needed, get out of hot water when times get rough, and all of this without help from any other classes. The psychic warrior does have one less attack per round during a full attack (except when under certain powers) which helps the fighter out quite a bit, but not nearly enough to be the combat warrior he is supposed to be.

Sklls? yep, the fighter needs them. But he also needs a nice chunk of extra power as well.

Focusing soley on one problem (the skills) is not a good way to go. I have made mention throughout that he'll need the power as well, but for flavor reasons and general use the skills are also needed. Both.