Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Scion]

20 power points of 272 power points for 200 minutes of 20 "empathic" damage (and at CR20, the creature that is doing less than 20 damage is not a melee creature) is not a "ton". The build can easily afford 50 pp per combat.

I would have empathic transfer doing the manifester's choice of energy damage (acidic, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic)

you obviously ignore that my build has dumped more than 20 points into it each time (through feats and such) and has put it up 3 times per day. Or are you saying that more than 1/4 of the total pp for the day is not a significant amount of pp? Even the guy I put up cannot sustain 50pp per battle.

In order for a normal psychic warrior to do the same they would likely be putting in up to half of their daily allotment to do so.

It is pretty strong, but the cost is also very high.

If it is going to be changed to do some type of damage then it definately should not do an elemental type, that would take it from strong (possibly too strong) to useless in one fell swoop.

 

[Majere]

Majere's Dwarf: +22 (+2 vs Magic)
Dwarf McMunchkin: +20

Majere's Dwarf: 90%*90% = 81%
Dwarfy McMunchkin: 70%*100%=70% (Immune to fear)

/[Edit]: added Dwarfy McMunchkin [/Edit]

Please not that both builds had a ring of freedom of action:
So the true numbrs are:

Dwarf: 90%
McMunchkin: 100%

Also make his immune to arguments about grapple checks !!

Majere
Knows how to stack the deck

 

[Scion]

Fair enough criticism. I don't think I'm being close-minded here though.

Nor do I feel I am being closed minded. Stating that the psychic warrior can do a vast number of things that the fighter cant hope to do by himself (as stating that one could do it with a party member isnt helpful, a commoner could do the same, and I doubt anyone would say that he is up to par with pc classes) is clear. There should be no dispute there, but people were saying the opposite. I have even tried not to cry fowl about any feats that would normally be considered overpowered/broken (improved trip is right up there), which would seem to be letting people have their piece of the pie.

I'm more comparing the various psionic abilities discussed here to various magical abilities. Expansion compares to Enlarge Person. Empathic Feedback to Fire Shield. Etc. etc.

Enlarge person works on other people and is only a first level spell. Expansion when augmented is no longer the same as a first level power, so comparing the two at that point is difficult to impossible, much like saying that an empowered, maximised, quickened magic missile is better than magic missile so therefore magic missile is broken. It just doesnt work.

Fire shield is a bit on the weak side, especially for its level. Mainly from being highly visible (you are now a torch), elemental damage (most creatures will wind up being resistant or immune, even at the level you first get it), and its incredibly short duration.

Although, comparing the two when they are the same level of casting (with 20th level casters, as seems to be the threads way to go) it goes like this:

Fire shield: 20 rounds, self only, d6+15 damage (fire or cold) to attacker (melee only), light as a torch (can be good or bad, although bad seems more likely), and half elemental damage from opposite element with save for half giving no damage (limited form of improved evasion).

Empathic feedback: 200 minute duration, self only, 5 points for psion or 7 points for psychic warrior (no damage type) from melee only.

So, fire shield does 'much' more damage to targets who dont resist (avg 18.5 vs a max of 7 for the psychic warrior and only if they are hit for 7 or more along with it).

Mostly it comes down to duration and augmentation. Empathic feedback has a duration that will likely last more than one battle but fireshield does not. On my list that puts fireshield into the worthless bin in the vast majority of cases. Also, in this example it is obviously not overpowered, it does typeless damage and as such does much, much less. So peoples real problems probably stem from the augmentation. But that is incredibly difficult to measure.

To get the real bang out of it at higher levels you really have to dump points into it, especially if you want to make it last for enough time (via extend or some other method). Even maxed out as I have it how does it compare with other such spells/powers? Mass heal, gate, implosion, miracle, wish, astral projection, mass hold monster, prismatic sphere.. etc..How about the lowly summon monster 9? high level spells do some impressive things. High level powers are the same. For the purposes of the last thread, from which this one came, fighters need high end feat trees to make them a viable class. otherwise they have to do what was done here for the fighters and go to a lot of different sources and pick out the most overpowered ones they can find to simulate it. Other fighter classes get big and bad abilities, so much so that they can overwhelm high level casters (there are overpowered/broken spells as well, but I like to get rid of those in my games, namely: save or dies, disjunction, improved invis, and a few others.. I also give fighters some impressive trees to draw from, others can take them as well, but if it takes all 7 of their feats to do it they tend only to finish at very high levels).

It doesn't kill any of your builds to activate Expansion as a swift action on your first initiative. Fire Shield is plenty useful for characters with a decent amount of hit points (like clerics or PsyWars). I've seen it cast quite frequently as a standard action even though it only lasts one round/level, deals typed damage, and is subject to SR. I don't see why the psionic version would suddenly be useless just because it had a lower duration.

So spending one action out of the fight (a very important action, the first one) to put up a limited time offer isnt a problem? We will simply have to disagree pretty much completely on this one.

But even then, how many buffs do you have time for? Giving up one round is bad enough, but what if you need two buffs to really get moving? or three?

Putting up short duration powers for pretty large costs just doesnt help very much. Unbuffed the psychic warrior is below the fighter. Down by up to 5 BAB, 3 feats, and 20 hp. Normally it will take about 3 buffs to take care of this to catch up. If they have to put up those three powers before every battle then they'll never be able to keep up, so no wonder you favor the fighters, you dont like having durations that are actually helpful.

1 round/ level spells/powers had better be pretty incredible for what they do. Likely a character will either have 0 or 1 of them up, the 1 cuts into power considerably.

1 minute/level are still effectively single battle effects. Though can could be used in 2 very close together battles if pushed or high in levels and extended.

10 min/level and up are when they actually start to become useful. You can actually have these up at random times, even if you arent worried about fighting just now.

With such short term buffs being so proliferent the main problem isnt even that they are so difficult to put up in a regular combat, which is a major problem indeed, but that people who get the jump on others have an even greater benefit. If you are ambushing someone then you and your compatrios can have all of your short term devices activated, which destroys the CR system. A fully short term buffed up group of guys vs people with no buffs on at all can modify the ECL so completely it boggles the mind.

Short term buffs have their place, usually having one up at a time, but there need to be many longer term buffs just as a general sense of purpose and character. They give a feel for how time normally flows, elsewise it is just back down to video game status. As 3.5 with their short term buffs seem to be pointing to.

Long term buffs are much healthier for the game than tons of short term buffs.

In all likelyhood though empathic feedback does give SR but they failed to mention it. A cursory glance at fire shield and you would expect no SR either so if they were basing it losely on that then an error could have occured there.

There are plenty of powers that are perfectly fine the way they're written and the way you use them. There are some that I think overpowered, underpriced or both. Does this surprise you?

Of course not, everyone has different levels they think certain things are at. Some people feel that weapon focus is too powerful. There are some things that are strong indeed, but there is a difference between 'powerful' and 'too powerful'. where people draw the line differs however. In some games it works one way, in others differently. I have seen games where the halfogre is fine at +1 LA, and other games where it would not have worked no matter the LA. Games differ.

Nor do I see any particular reason why ALL of the PsyWar's powers have to be used every battle.

My original build only has 10 powers up and running at once, not all of even those will be used every battle. A few secondary powers might be used in a given battle. So we are definately far from 'all' being used every battle. The second guy used almost none.

But then how many does your guy use every battle?

The psychic warrior paid the price to use his abilities more often through a host of feats, limited spell slot selection, and pp useage. Why shouldnt he be able to count on them often?

And that's exactly what made 3.0's Persistent Spell feat broken.

Actually, it being poorly thought out is what made it broken. Most of the time it was worthless, the few times it was actually useful it tended to be incredibly overpowering.

I have advocated forever for it to be turned into something more like permanancy. That way you have a list of spells that it can be used on (opens up many more options), the level adjustment would vary by how big of a benefit it would be, and it solves every problem all at once.

The current 'fix' only makes the problem larger. It is only useful when overpowered and is useless every other time.

As for the Skin of the Proteus--watch and you'll see. Completely and utterly broken.

This is not a problem with the skin itself, you are saying you have a problem with polymorph like spells and powers. That is a completely seperate issue entirely.

Like I said, my build could do the same thing with an expenditure of a feat. So really, your problem comes from the power. As there are many threads decrying the overpoweredness and underpoweredness of this spell/power (yes, it is both at the same time) this probably isnt the place for it beyond saying that psychic warriors can get the power and so have another one up on the fighter.

I don't criticise you for seeing the star-cloak on whatever fighter build had it and saying "that's broken." It is. The same is true of some items on your PsyWar builds.

Some items? you have said the skin of proteus, so what other items are broken?

I have purposely steered clear of quite a few items in the complete divine, BoED, and the complete warrior. Although I also very much dislike the standard of heroism, which is why the last build I made did not use it. If allowed every party should have one because its effect is so far reaching and good and its cost is negligable (in a standard party they just have to pay 10k each and they get +2 attack, +2 to saves, and +2 to skill checks)

There are certain items that if allowed would break the environment (that cloak and the retributive amulet are at the top of the list, when worn together you take 1/4 damage? sign me up!). I dont think that the skin of proteus is any more abuseable than simply having the power however, but if you wish to show how overpowered it is go ahead. Chances are very good however that you will simply show that the power itself needs some work and not that the item is bad.

 

[Reis_Thunderwood]

WOG-WOG THE BEATSTICK

(10) Str: 34 [16 +6 (item) +5 (inherent) + 2 (racial) +5 (level)]
(2) Dex: 16 [10 +6 (item)]
(6) Con: 18 [14 +2 (item) + 2 (inherent)]
(4) Int: 10 [12 -2 (racial)]
(0) Wis: 10 [8 +2 (item)]
(3)Cha: 9 [11 -2 (racial)]
-25

HP: 20d10 (115) + 20*4 (80) = 195 hp

BAB: +20
Adamantium Greatclub: +41 [+20 (BAB) + 12 (Str) + 5 (Magic Weapon) + 2 (Reckless) + 2 (Weapon/Gr Weap Focus)]
Damage: 1d10 +4 (spec) +24 (str x2) +5 (magic) = 1d10+33 = 38.5 / (19-20/x2)

AC: 10 +3 dex +13 armor +3 shield +3 deflection +2 sacred +1 insight -4 reckless = 35 or 31 when reckless
Touch: 10+3-4+3+2+1 = 19 or 15 when reckless

Saves: (assumes +4 from Empyreal assigned to all saves)
Fort: 25 [12 (base) +4 (Con) +5 (item) +4(sacred)]
Reflex: 20 [6 (base)+3 (Dex)+5 (item) +2 (feat) +4(sacred)]
Will: 19 [6 (base) +5 (item) +4(sacred) +4 (insight item)]

Skills: 9+2*19+20 = 66
Intimidate (7/+19)
Climb (2/+14)
Jump (3/+15)
Ride (5/+8)
Sense Motive (10/+10)
Swim (5/+17)
Spot (6/+6)
Listen (6/+6)

Feats: Improved Critical, Reckless Offense, Weapon Focus (Great Club), Weapon Specialization (Great Club), Greater Weapon Focus (Great Club), Greater Weapon Specialization (Great Club), Resounding Blow, Quell the Profane, Nymphs Kiss, Blind Fight, Lightning Reflexes, Prone Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Three Mountains Style

Equipment:
+5 Adamantine Body Feeding (+3) Greatclub (131,000 gp)
Boots of Speed (12000)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36000)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36000)
Mithral Full Plate +5, Heavy Fortification (110500)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25000)
Animated Empyreal Mithral Large Shield +5 (82000)
Ring of Protection +3 (18000)
Ring of Evasion (25000)
Retributive Amulet (56000)
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (10667)
Pink Ioun Stone (8000)
Incandescent Blue Ioun Stone (8000)
Tome of Str+5 (137500)
Tome of Con+2 (55000)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (5000)
TOTAL: 755,667

Damage Dealt (assuming average criticals)
Held | 41/36/31/26 | 46.2 | DC 32 Fort or Nauseated
Plus 34% [(1-.9^4) = 34%] of a crit each round
Plus if a CRIT, then EVIL opponents must:
DC 21 Will Save or Cowering, DC 21 Fort Save or suffer 1d4+1 Str Damage
Results in 4 Hits = 4x46.2 = 184.8 points per round + extras
Plus the Retributive Amulet inflicts 45.75 damage per round.
Opponent dies in 1.30123617436565 rounds

Assuming no buffing from mage / cleric buddies, and no concealment:
+35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+20) = 95% + 95% + 70% + 45% = Three Hits = 30.5 per hit = 91.5 damage per round
Plus the Retributive Amulet distributes this evenly between both combatants = 45.75 damage per round
However, assuming 34% chance of a crit, he heals 31.77636 points per round.
Total damage suffered per round is 13.97364
WOG-WOG lasts for 13.9548464108135 rounds.

Revised with feedback from folks included. Basic analysis still applies. Saves and AC are better, and no dancing club. Saves could go up one more if he applies all of his Empyreal bonus to saves. AC could be higher too, if he applies all to AC and doesn't attack Recklessly, AC climbs to 39.

Reis.

 

[Scion]

Cool Guy Duck

Expert 20
Gnome
20d6+20*con + special = 72.5 + 120 + 32 = 224.5 + can go down to -9 and still be conscious

F + 12 R +13 W +11

Retributive amulet (56k)
Starmantle cloak (132k)
2xDorje of Vigor 6th level - 30hp (11.25k)
some random item to increase reflex save by +4 (16k or less)

Use Psionic Device 23

Improved toughness, endurance, die hard, toughnesx4

Stats: Str 6, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 13 (15 point buy, roughly normal baseline)
+ level bonus (+4 con, +1 dex)
Str 6, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8

AC: 10 + 1 (size) +3 (dex) +2 (sacred, from amulet) = 16
Attack: what is that?
Damage: huh?


Normal combat: put up a vigor, run into combat, put up a new vigor whenever the old one runs out, if he gets low on hp run away and fight another day.

Against +35 attack, 35 AC, 300 hp guy. I will assume that the expert already put up a vigor because I am cool like that I will also assume the baddy is useing a magical weapon (pretty likely).

The baddy goes first, each hit will do normally 30.5, reduced by half by the cloak (95% of the time), reduced by half again by the amulet. Then both people take that much.So both will take 7.625. Hitting 4 times in a round will deal roughly 30.5 points of damage to each during the round. Then the expert will use another charge. Defeat this foe with about 10 charges Not too shabby.. bet that weapon is worth more than the 2.25k spent in doing so. Maybe even enough to pick up something to be able to get away just in case a battle proves to be a problem.


I suppose this guy could even pick up something like an augmented dispel psionic to make weapons nonmagical, then when they hit they will be destroyed.

Edit: minor typo

 

[Nail]

Yowch!

 

[Scion]

So where is the big bad fighter who is going to destroy the world with the help from his skin of the proteus?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

OK, let's start by assuming that the character is built at 20th level and therefore doesn't have to worry about what he does before he gets the skin of the Proteus. Fair is fair after all.

So: tallfellow halfling fighter 20
Str 7 (why bother, we've got the skin of the Proteus)+5 inherent, Dex 10 (again, why bother), Con 14 (no particular reason to bother), Int 14, Wis 14+5 for level increases, Cha 14

In Fire Giant form (we're allowing higher manifester level skins after all)
Str 42 (31 base+5 inherent+6 belt), Dex 15 (9 bast +6 gloves), Con 25 (19 base +6 bracers), Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 14

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Improved Toughness, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will, WF, GWF, WS, GWS: Greatsword

Hit points: 274.5 (assuming that the form's con score is used for hit points as per the polymorph Rules of the Game article)

Skills: Autohypnosis: +18 (11rcc), Listen +18 (11 r cc), Ride +3 (1 r), Spot +18 (11r cc), Swim +5 (3 r) Tumble +2 (5r cc--can't be used in his armor but gives bonus to fighting defensively and full defense), Use Magic Device +10 (6r cc)

Saves: Fort: +29 (+12 base +7 con + 2 morale +1 luck, +1 insight, + 5 resistance, +1 halfling)
Ref: +18 (+6 base +2 dex +2 morale, +1 luck, +1 insight, +5 resistance, +1 halfling)
Will: +23 (+6 base +5 wisdom +2 morale, +1 luck, +1 insight, +5 resistance, +1 halfling +2 iron will)

Equipment:
Tome of strength +5 (137k)
+5 vest of resistance 25k
Luckstone 20k
+6 belt of strength 36k
+6 gloves of dex 36 k
+6 bracers of con 36k
+5 large holy cold iron greatsword (74k)
+5 adamantine fullplate of heavy fort, heartening (110k of so)
+1 parrying adamantine armor spikes (11k)
+5 animated heavy shield (64kgp)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Ring of Protection +5 50k
Amulet of Nat Arm +5 50k
Cape of the Montebank (10k or so)
Skin of Proteus (80 k or so)
Standard of Heroism (40k)

For a reduced cost, more min-maxed version, substitute 2 level 3 pearls of power (clvl 20) and a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell for the +5 enhancement bonus on his weapons and armor to free up about 80kgp in funds. More could be freed up by substituting pearl of power 2s (barkskin) and a rod of lesser extension for the amulet of natural armor.

Armor Class: 50 (10 base -1 size, +14 natural (+9 fire giant, +5 enhancement), +13 fullplate, +5 deflection, +1 insight, +1 dex, +7 shield), 51 with dodge, 52 with haste and dodge.

Grapple: +42 (+20 BAB, +4 size, +16 str, +2 morale)
Trip: +25 (+16 str, +4 size, +4 feat, +1 luck)
Attack: +44 (+20 BAB -1 size +16 strength, +5 weapon, +2 greater weapon focus+2 morale)
Full Attack: +44/+39/+34/+29 for 3d6+33+2d6 vs. evil
Haste full attack: +45/+45/+40/+35/+30

Offense Analysis:
Average damage per single/full attack (calculated by http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php)
Single attack (with power attack)/Full atk: Power Attack/Full Atk:No Power Attack
Against Generic monster (non-evil AC 35): 134.5/276/240
FRA with Combat Brute Momentum Swing and a six point (non-optimal power attack): 292
Against Balor (AC 35): 141.5/272.5/304
Against Pit Fiend (AC 40): 103.5/185.5/199.5 (Includes DR 15/silver and good)
Against Wyrm black dragon (AC 42): 109.5/237/237

This, of course, improves if we use the >50% chance=hit analysis (but I'm not sure we are). It also includes if we assume a round 1 charge and then add momentum swing damage from Combat Brute, the damage goes up noticably.

Among our test cases, the only one left standing at the end of round 2 is the wyrm black dragon--and having taken 346 points of damage or so, he's probably not too happy. The fire giant form fighter can afford to just stand there and trade full attacks with the dragon and he'll usually win.

Physical Defensive Analysis:
Vs. Generic +35/+30 for 3d6+20 damage: 8.25 damage/charge, 9.625/full attack
Vs. Pit Fiend: needs 20's to hit.
Vs. Balor: 20% chance to hit on charge attack; 10% chance to hit with longsword; needs 20's to hit at all when TWF
Vs. Dragon with multiattack: (+42 bite: 4d6+12, +40 2 claws 2d8+6, +40 2 wings 2d6+6, +40 tail slap 2d8+18) 51.65/full attack (Note that high AC and Elusive Target are likely to help here since the dragon really can't get anything out of power attacking).

Vs. Grapple: Can easily pin anything short of the wyrm dragon or the tarrasque. Is usually too large to be snatched by a black wyrm and can be too large to be snatched even by a collossal dragon if he wants to be. (And really, the snatch feat is the only kind of grappling most dragons do willingly).

Vs. Multiple opponents, he has AC, cleave (which will increase his take from 1 Cornugon or Marilith per round to two), Elusive Target (which would be helpful when facing multiple CR 20 dragons or demons), Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still which are quite helpful for battlefield control.

Flexibility of attack and defense:
For added humiliation to the balor, he can easily sunder both its whip and its longsword without reducing his damage/round in the slightest.
Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still give him a lot of options against opponents with less reach than him. These could be exaggerated by using a reach weapon (switching to a glaive would reduce his average damage per hit by 2.5 and switching to a guisarme would reduce it by 4.5--neither of which is particularly significant). Switching to a spiked chain would reduce his hit points by 20 (swap Imp Toughness for Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and his damage by 4.5/hit but the increase in reach and flexibility would probably be worth it. (If he used any reach weapon, the dragon could no longer execute fly-by attacks and bite him without provoking AoOs and large foes like the balor and pit fiend would generally provoke AoOs if they wanted to close with him and attack in the same round (otherwise, they'd just teleport)). Unfortunately, none of these kind of options--which IMO are what separate fighter from barbarians, etc--really show up in this kind of a head to head contest, so I chose to limit them and use a greatsword to demonstrate sheer damage-dealing potential (well, actually a falchion would be even more damaging but it's crit dependent and the greatsword is more reliable).

Skin of the Proteus enables him to take the form of an annis hag (reduce strength by six) in order to gain improved grab (very helpful considering that, even with the reduced strength, he'll still be likely to pin a pit fiend with a full attack grapple)
He is vulnerable to cold in fire giant form but can take Frost Giant form for immunity to that at slightly reduced strength.
He can take the form of a stone giant or Gray Glutton for superior defense and if he feels like using real cheese, could take the form of an ettin and wield a wounding weapon in each hand to get nine attacks per round for one point of con each). A lot of DMs wouldn't allow it but the rules call the ettin's superior TWF an extraordinary special attack. He has a variety of forms (Remorhaz, giant eagle, dragon, etc that he can take for mobility). An Athach would be a very good form for multiweapon fighting and could theoretically get in 12 attacks with wounding weapons (or whatever) if he could come up with Improved Multiweapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting feats somewhere.

Other than flexibility, the Skin of the Proteus gives the fighter about +6 strength vs. what would otherwise be the maximum possible strength for the fighter, more con than he would otherwise be able to afford on point buy, more armor class than would ordinarily be possible (natural armor--though my first candidate could match it using Alter Self), and reach. The skin is probably more abusive on a Monk, PsyWar, cleric, Eldritch Knight, or multiclassed fighter than on a single-classed fighter for the simple reason that single-classed fighters don't get a whole lot out of their mental stats and therefore don't benefit as much from treating strength, dexterity, etc. as dump stats.

There's also Aasmar/Tiefling fighter 19
He uses the skin of the Proteus to assume the form of a planetar. The results will be similar but planetar is a more defensive form and can fly. Unfortunately, mariliths have 16 HD or they would be the ultimate multiwounding weapon cheese form.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This is not a problem with the skin itself, you are saying you have a problem with polymorph like spells and powers. That is a completely seperate issue entirely.

Not really. It's really a problem with unlimited duration polymorph-like spells and powers. I also have a problem with dumping physical stats on the basis of an assumption that the character will always be polymorphed (which is what unlimited duration polymorph effects allow). This is particularly problematic in comparisons like this where low-level survivability isn't an issue.

At 1 min/level and with the HD cap, I don't really have a difficulty with polymorph spells as such.

Like I said, my build could do the same thing with an expenditure of a feat. So really, your problem comes from the power. As there are many threads decrying the overpoweredness and underpoweredness of this spell/power (yes, it is both at the same time) this probably isnt the place for it beyond saying that psychic warriors can get the power and so have another one up on the fighter.

Yes and no. How many pps does the PsyWar have to spend to be polymorphed each day at 7pp/21 minutes, 9pp/ 41 minutes, or 9pp and some damage/48 minutes? I'm calculating it at a minimum of 270pp/day in order to keep it active 24 hours. (And note that the power is far more vulnerable to dispelling than the skin is since the skin would have to be recognized and individually targetted but the power is eligible for dispelling on a targetted or area dispel). I suspect that the build would be much less efficient if it were forced to use the power rather than the skin.

A couple more notes on the comparison:
1. I think there's a good Power Attack+Great Cleave+Shock Trooper+Combat Brute+Powerful Charge+Speed of Though+Psionic Charge [+Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target to avoid power attack reprisals] PsyWar build out there that would use a maximally augmented Psionic Lion's Charge (quite possibly in combination with Form of Doom if there were time to prepare) and full power attack (reducing AC instead of atk with Shock Trooper) to make a full attack with +41 damage on each one handed weapon or natural attack and +61 damage on each two handed weapon from Power Attack and Psionic Lion's Charge. (Speed of Thought and Psionic Charge are to get around the extremely limiting 3.5 charge rules). Such a character could Great Cleave pit fiends without getting particularly lucky--especially if he had Form of Doom up. And if he doesn't kill everything he charged, he's still got x1.5 or x3 power attack on the next round, courtesy of Combat Brute's Momentum Swing.

(Skin of the Proteus and Centaur form to use the mounted combat feats to multiply damage on the full attack would be even more broken--Spirited Charge with the +7 metaphysical weapon and a 30 strength for +249 damage on each attack with a large lance wielded in two hands).

2. I think we've moved beyond making "viable" builds to full-fledged smackdown builds here (even if we are limited to single-class characters). I suspect that, even though these characters could probably be improved by multiclassing they're reaching into the same ballpark as hyper-optimized characters. Having more options between psionic feats and powers means that there is more range for PsyWars to be either further above or further below the power curve for a "typical" 20th level character than a fighter. In that sense, the PsyWar "kicks more butt." On the other hand, I don't think Fighters have any trouble staying at or even reaching above the power curve for a "typical" 20th level character. Even so, fighters are better suited to team play than to solo play while PsyWar characters can probably handle solo play more easily.

 

[Scion]

First off, your new con does not change your hp. As per the raw (both as written in the core books and as the errata to the dmg, no we dont know why it was put into the dmg, states) The 'rules of the game' articles have way too many errors to be truely decissive ;/ Especially when they fly in the face of the errata.

Secondly, looks like the skin of the proteus actually puts the fighter up to the level where he should be. Maybe the fighter should have some sort of build in ability akin to it.

He is able to be a combat machine in his chosen form of combat (whatever that may be), even surpassing the other fighter types in various aspects.

Sounds perfect, I'll have to work on something like that to add onto the fighter type of class (not quite as strong though, as I would also like them to have a few knowledge skills. after all, who better than the fighter to be a general of an army?)

A few questions about the build that I am not seeing right off:

Avg damage
3d6+5 (weapon)+24 (str)+4 (2 ws)+40 (full power attack) = avg 83.5
You put down 134.5. Even taking into account crits the damage doesnt come anywher near that, even maxed out. Where am I missing some extra damage points?

You are only size large so I dont see how you have all of the superiority you are claiming for reach. It is the most minimal amount and reach can be avoided in a number of ways, high level characters will tend to ignore reach a good portion of the time.

Changing into an ettin does you little to no good, as you wont gain its special qualities (as per the description of metamorphosis). I also dont see how a few of those other forms you list will help you at all, generally they have lesser/equal abilities to the one form you did pick to stat out. Especially if you change into the gray glutton as you will lose str and your weapon will be of the wrong size for your form.


Also, comparing to what your other character had you have 6 higher AC but a lower touch ac. All of that difference can be eliminated by your other character useing his charge of alter self.


Also, you are sitting pretty at about 800k right now, adding on extra pearls of power is a bit out of the question

All in all the two characters are not horribly disimilar in a lot of ways. Sure the halfling does better in several areas, but this is more from incredible min/maxing where you simply ignore fighter stats because later in your carear you will have this item. But even then it isnt so incredibly better across the board (some areas are, some arent) as to be able to say the item is horribly overpowered.

I would like to know where that damage output comes from though, it seems incredibly off. I cant even begin to look at the rest of the damage stats until that part is explained.