Melee Smackdown - Who kicks more butt, PsyWar or Ftr? Prove it!

[Scion]

I am afraid that this thread is starting to become a joke really. Everytime something goes up that is stronger than the fighter it is said to be broken or should be reduced in power. It doesnt matter how many resources are dumped into it, it is still broken. It doesnt matter that other classes could do very similar things and that it only looks strong when compared to the fighter, who sucks, as is becoming even more clear with every iteration.

Since other classes have all sorts of ways to keep up in various venues I suppose we might as well open up the thread to other builds for comparison. Obviously if it continues comparing with the fighter then eventually everything possibly useful for the psychic warrior (other than nonpsionic feats, since the fighter might actually be able to get those) will eventually be said to be overpowered somehow.

You claimed I was being close minded earlier (apparently because I kept on saying that the psychic warrior was better in a list of areas.. which it was since the list was there for everyone to see) but now I think it is my turn to say the same to you. Is everything that is useful overpowered? Can we only have powers that last for minutes or rounds that take half of the battle to even try to get up and use up all of the psychic warriors powers in that single battle? Well then, in that case sure, the psychic warrior sucks compared with the fighter. But then if we hamstring and take away special abilities every other class in comparison then the fighter will come out to look like god anyway. No benefit there.

 

[green slime]

what would be the use of a paladin build in a thread about fighters and psychic warriors?

If you think another class altogether is a better combatant, let's see it.

From the original message at the start of this thread... Perhaps you should read it again?

 

[green slime]

The first build dumped a 'ton' of pp into the empathic feedback to make it useful. So therefore it should be useful. 1 minute / level or less is useless. This is because the character needs several buffs up at once to become worthwhile, so with a very limited amount of actions and a similarly limited number of pp the durations must be sufficient to be used.

20 power points of 272 power points for 200 minutes of 20 "empathic" damage (and at CR20, the creature that is doing less than 20 damage is not a melee creature) is not a "ton". The build can easily afford 50 pp per combat.

I would have empathic transfer doing the manifester's choice of energy damage (acidic, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic)

 

[green slime]

Will saves:
Original Psy War Build1: +21
Shadeus ½Orc: +13 (assuming cloak of Prot +5, but this character was badly defined)
Elder Basilisk Ftr: +19
Majere's Dwarf: +22 (+2 vs Magic)
Mace Maestro: +30
WogWog: +10
PsyWar Build2: +22
PsyWar Build3: +17
Dwarf McMunchkin: +20

The Pit fiend has Unholy Aura at will, so should always have this operating...Each successful attack against it deals 1d6 temporary Strength damage

IMO, given the above, Not many survive the Pit Fiend's Mass Hold Monster (at 280' range) or can approach the Pit Fiend's 20'r Fear Aura. Both Will DC 27.

Chance to survive both:
PsyWar builds: 100%*100% = 100% IF both Personal Mindblank and Psionic Freedom of Movement are up
Mace Maestro: 95%*95% = 90.25%
Majere's Dwarf: 90%*90% = 81%
Dwarfy McMunchkin: 70%*100%=70% (Immune to fear)
Psy War Build2: 80%*80% = 64%
Elder-Basilisk: 65%*65% = 42.25%
Psy War Build3: 55%*55% = 30.25%
Shadeus ½Orc 35%*35% = 12.25%
WogWog: 20%*20% = 4%...

/[Edit]: added Dwarfy McMunchkin [/Edit]

 

[green slime]

Init:
Psy War Build1: +2
Elder-Basilisk's Ftr: +3
Majere's Dwarf Def: +4
Mace Maestro: +3
Dwarfy McMunchkin: +7
WogWog: +3
PsyWar Build2: +5
PsyWar Build3: +3-+5

vs

Pit Fiend's +12

Dwarfy McMunchkin has 26.25% to beat Pit Fiend's Initiative.
Psy War Build2: 19.5%
Majere's Dwarf Def: 16.5%
WogWog, Mace Maestro, EB Ftr: 13.75%
Psy War Build1: 11.25%

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I am afraid that this thread is starting to become a joke really. Everytime something goes up that is stronger than the fighter it is said to be broken or should be reduced in power. It doesnt matter how many resources are dumped into it, it is still broken. It doesnt matter that other classes could do very similar things and that it only looks strong when compared to the fighter, who sucks, as is becoming even more clear with every iteration.

Since other classes have all sorts of ways to keep up in various venues I suppose we might as well open up the thread to other builds for comparison. Obviously if it continues comparing with the fighter then eventually everything possibly useful for the psychic warrior (other than nonpsionic feats, since the fighter might actually be able to get those) will eventually be said to be overpowered somehow.

You claimed I was being close minded earlier (apparently because I kept on saying that the psychic warrior was better in a list of areas.. which it was since the list was there for everyone to see) but now I think it is my turn to say the same to you. Is everything that is useful overpowered? Can we only have powers that last for minutes or rounds that take half of the battle to even try to get up and use up all of the psychic warriors powers in that single battle? Well then, in that case sure, the psychic warrior sucks compared with the fighter. But then if we hamstring and take away special abilities every other class in comparison then the fighter will come out to look like god anyway. No benefit there.

Fair enough criticism. I don't think I'm being close-minded here though. I'm more comparing the various psionic abilities discussed here to various magical abilities. Expansion compares to Enlarge Person. Empathic Feedback to Fire Shield. Etc. etc. Since I'm playing a rather successful fighter/wizard/spellsword/eldritch knight at the moment who has to make do with the magical versions, I can say from experience that the magical versions are plenty useful and with the built in quicken augmentations, the psionic abilities would be plenty useful even at lower durations. It doesn't kill any of your builds to activate Expansion as a swift action on your first initiative. Fire Shield is plenty useful for characters with a decent amount of hit points (like clerics or PsyWars). I've seen it cast quite frequently as a standard action even though it only lasts one round/level, deals typed damage, and is subject to SR. I don't see why the psionic version would suddenly be useless just because it had a lower duration.

There are plenty of powers that are perfectly fine the way they're written and the way you use them. There are some that I think overpowered, underpriced or both. Does this surprise you?

Nor do I see any particular reason why ALL of the PsyWar's powers have to be used every battle. It's nice if you can get a build that can do that or even one that can use a lot of them because you get some nice synergy that way but by the same token, that synergy makes long duration a considerable advantage in its own right. To use an analogy with core classes, battle clerics are a very good build. When Righteous Mighted, Divine Powered, Divine Favored, etc they become real powerhouses. And that's exactly what made 3.0's Persistent Spell feat broken. It enabled clerics who ordinarily had to spend a few rounds to get that buffed up to use all of their spell slots at once by being persistent righteous mighted, persistent divine powered, and persistent divine favored. No cleric, no wizard, and no sorceror can reasonably expect every spell they know to be used in the same battle--nor every spell they have prepared. Building a PsyWar build that uses all of his powers in every battle is an interesting exercise but I'm far from convinced that they all need to be on all day to be worth having.

As for the Skin of the Proteus--watch and you'll see. Completely and utterly broken. Especially if you allow higher manifester levels. Welcome to my Athach, Stone Giant, or Gray Glutton formed fighter (to be posted tomorrow). If I'm allowed to make an Aasmar build, welcome to my Planetar fighter. It's like 3.0 Polymorph Other come back unwelcome from its grave. (It also has a rather nasty way of enabling builds that would pretty much be non-viable without it. What does the 9 strength fighter or PsyWar do before he can eliminate his strength penalty by replacing his physical stats with Skin of the Proteus?) The item certainly doesn't particularly benefit the PsyWar. All of its benefits are equally available to the fighter or anyone else who gets one. In fact, comparitively, it's probably in the Fighter's advantage that the Skin of the Proteus exists and be as powerful as possible--after all, the PsyWar could polymorph without it simply by spending a feat to learn how and some power points to change shape. The fighter couldn't without the item.

I don't criticise you for seeing the star-cloak on whatever fighter build had it and saying "that's broken." It is. The same is true of some items on your PsyWar builds.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Green_Slime, you may wish to revise your figure for Scion's PsyWar builds. With Personal Mind Blank and Psionic Freedom of Movement (which both figure into their daily pp outlays at 24 hours/day) they're completely immune to both the Hold Monster and the Fear Aura.

 

[green slime]

I'll do that.

But, the Starmantle cloak was also an opportunity/resource cost: 132 000 gp. Remove it, and there is a large slush fund to be placed on upping the armour & Shield, instead. Quite easily accomodating an increase to the armour and shield to +5 each, removing the dispel vulnerability, removing the necessity of gaining those boosts from the cleric, and actually increasing the build's survivability. It wasn't the main focus of that build, which was the use of Wisdom as primary stat.

Otherwise, the equipment starts appearing far too similar to each other... Every build grabbing Luckblade and Standard of Heroism.

 

[green slime]

I agree that on the surface the Skin of Proteus looks far too strong.

And as for choosing Grey Glutton...well... Doesn't it seem sort of inappropriate for a psionically endowed individual to choose something so rabidly anti-psionic?

 

[green slime]

As per the request of the original poster, I shall later today post another character class capable of meeting the threat(s). Some may be surprised after the amount of "suckage" complaints it recieves regarding its performance in melee combat.