Messing with skills, a new approach

[AeroDm]

In the '4e more elegant' and other threads in general people seem to reference the various problems with skills a great deal. Personally, I dislike how un-heroic characters can seem with skills. Most high-level fighters couldnt charge down a stairway (DC 10 balance), jump onto a table (DC 10 jump), or do any number of similar heroic actions that are all rather core to the genre. Likewise, I hate how multi-class character builds are forced to begin in certain classes because otherwise the skill loss is too great.

My proposed change is simple: What if you were to reduce all skill DCs by 5 and then not give x4 skill points at 1st level.

In essence you would be given a +2 bonus to any skill you maxed ranks in and a +5 bonus to any skill you have no ranks in. So all characters would become better at all skills. Similarly, because there is no x4 your first level skill points are not an issue, and characters can choose their class based on what they want, not what they are willing to lose.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Your method works fine - though my method is simply to give double skill points for the 1st 3 levels of character (x2, x2, x2 = 6) instead of x4 at 1st (x4, x1, x1 = 6). Your method does indeed make all skills easier to accomplish - certainly worth looking at.

BB

 

[sfedi]

What I do to solve this problem is to make no class have less than 4 skill points, and extra skill points can be gained not only from a high Int stat.
(different abilities provides skill points to different skills youo can develop)

This has the effect of giving most classes a fair amount of skill points, from which to pay all those skills.

Thus, you don't have to mess with skill DCs, and people can do whatever stuff they want to pay for.

 

[reanjr]

In the '4e more elegant' and other threads in general people seem to reference the various problems with skills a great deal. Personally, I dislike how un-heroic characters can seem with skills. Most high-level fighters couldnt charge down a stairway (DC 10 balance), jump onto a table (DC 10 jump), or do any number of similar heroic actions that are all rather core to the genre. Likewise, I hate how multi-class character builds are forced to begin in certain classes because otherwise the skill loss is too great.

Most of my low level fighters don't have much of a problem with that stuff. If you are putting all of your ranks into Ride and Climb then that will happen, but if you spread out your skill points, it seems to do a fine job for me.

I fully agree with the multi-class skill-whoring thing, though. I fix it by not granting weapon and armor proficiency for a class after 1st level. Really makes you think "Do I want a Fighter/Rogue with free armor and weapon prof. or do I want a Rogue/Fighter with all sorts of skills"

Alternatively, I will allow you to gain a single armor or weapon prof. each level in the new class until you have them all (which of course, you can't have all the martial weapons...)

So a Rogue 3 who just starts out his first fighter level might choose Armor Prof. (Medium) or Shield Prof. or Weapon Prof. (Longsword) at that level. And then choose other weapons, armor, etc. as he continues with fighter (but not if he goes back to rogue).

 

[dragoncc]

Well, my "elegant solution" was to bring back 0-level (& fill it out which also helps with dipping), drop the x4 modifier from 1st level, & just have the character essentially x2 lower than 3.x characters. Makes the DCs with feats & all more in line with what I think each level of character should achieve. (Note: I also increased all but Commoner & Barbarian to 4 +INT modifier to make it "just right"). Not as invasive as changing all DCs, but the multiclassing edge from choosing Rogue/Fighter over Fighter/Rogue is eliminated )

I fully agree with the multi-class skill-whoring thing, though. I fix it by not granting weapon and armor proficiency for a class after 1st level. Really makes you think "Do I want a Fighter/Rogue with free armor and weapon prof. or do I want a Rogue/Fighter with all sorts of skills"

Alternatively, I will allow you to gain a single armor or weapon prof. each level in the new class until you have them all (which of course, you can't have all the martial weapons...)

So a Rogue 3 who just starts out his first fighter level might choose Armor Prof. (Medium) or Shield Prof. or Weapon Prof. (Longsword) at that level. And then choose other weapons, armor, etc. as he continues with fighter (but not if he goes back to rogue).

I might have to give this a look, mind if I take it for a spin?

 

[The Merciful]

Hmm... I have been playing with an idea that at first level each class would get some free skill ranks in a one or two skils. Spellcraft for wizards, survival for rangers etc. Now, if the character wants to multiclass, she would not get those free skill ranks from the second class. Even worse - they would be requirements for entering the class much like as with prestige classes. (Those free ranks could replace the x4 multiplier at 1st level...)

If there also were a skill rank or two from racial bacground, you could eliminate the consept of favored class. You would naturally have different races more inclined to specific classes without resticting player freedom. Humans with their extra skill point would still be most verastile.

This method would also prevent fighters becoming wizards completely out of blue and the like. For added flavor you could rule that for skills that can't be used untrained, character must learn from a teacher or tutor before she can add ranks to them.

Well, that's my little idea there...

 

[Terath Ninir]

Well, that's my little idea there...

Hmm. Pretty good one. My players have good reasons for switching classes, but that's because they're willing to do so.

One thing Spycraft did, that your idea made me think of, is that certain class abilities are only available if you take the class at first character level. If you multiclass later, you get some abilities, but not all. I could see doing something similar with skills...

 

[jerichothebard]

Merciful - I really like that idea! I think another extension of it might be that, in order to multi-class, you must maintain ranks in all prime skills, sinking at least one skill point into them every level... This could do away with XP penalties, which, in a word, suck.

 

[FireLance]

Most high-level fighters couldnt charge down a stairway (DC 10 balance), jump onto a table (DC 10 jump), or do any number of similar heroic actions that are all rather core to the genre.

A minor nitpick, but a DC 10 check is really very easy to meet. A completely unexceptional character could make a DC 10 check 55% of the time when under stress, and can take 10 to meet it automatically otherwise.

A high-level fighter with exceptional Strength and Dexterity has a good chance to accomplish the maneuvers you mention even without any ranks in Balance and Jump (assuming no armor check penalties, of course).

 

[AeroDm]

When I wrote 'most' I was trying to imply 'full-plate' because such has been my experience. Should have been more specific...

Hence, most mid-level fighters have a -5 or worse armor check, and therefore couldn't expect to routinely charge down a flight of stairs (something I consider pretty standard fare).