Meta-gaming Player

[Nyaricus]

My meta-gaming player just sent me an e-mail with his new level-upped character. He also mentioned that he had converted his excess gold in 500gp each silver pearls!

This annoys me a little. Does anyone else have an issue with their players simply telling you that they're converting their gold to gems or something similar? Am I being too much of a control freak?

Personally I would play out the situation with the money lender/exchanger (either in-game or via e-mail). The player would not necessarily get full value for the exchange (the money lender has to make a profit on the exchange too!) and they may not be able to get exactly what they want either. For example, certain precious stones/gems may simply not be available in the area (silver pearls probably would be though since Freeport is on an island) or they may cost more than they are worth due to demand for them (as spell components for example).

What does everyone else think?

Olaf the Stout

I think a 10% charge is a good idea. And explain to this player that he can't just go changing stuff without asking you first. He definitly wouldn't get full price for them in any case.

Oh, and remember that since he's now carrying a small coin/gem purse, it'll be less noticable when a thief lifts it from him

EDIT: oh, and he should be making Know: local checks to find out about gem dealers in the area, as Hussar said. It wouldn't be that easy to find.

 

[Conaill]

Think of it like a fantasy novel... I sure wouldn't want to read a novel where the author spends 2-3 pages on the protagonist haggling over pearls, if that scene doesn't contribute to the story.

I might give him a roll to see what he *actually* gets, based on his Appraise skill, Sense Motive, etc. And definitely don't just give him whatever he asks for, if whatever he asks for is far outside of the ordinary of what he might actually be able to find. But I would save the roleplaying for when it really makes a difference. (If you want to roleplay an interesting persona for the money changer, that's one thing. But that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about here.)

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Ok, so at least I know I'm not alone on the whole GP/gem thing. What I wrote initially was a little harsher but I edited it before I pressed that submit button!

Hussar,

The PC's have just hit 4th level so according to standard DMG wealth levels, each PC should have about 5,400gp in valuables. According to his new character sheet he actually has just over 5k so he is actually just under where he should be. Of that he converted 2,500 gp of stuff into 5 silver pearls worth 500gp each.

We started the campaign at 3rd level and I think he starting play with a fair bit of gold "on hand". So far a lot of what the party has found has been in GP, gems and jewellery. I imagine that is what he has converted into the silver pearls but I would have to double check on it to be sure.

How did he know that his appraise checks for the items were correct? How did he know that the piece of jewellery (from a looted crypt) didn't belong to a Freeport noble that had been buried there and may get him into trouble when he went to sell it? What if he had to deal with some sort of seedy jeweller that was out to rip him off? None of that may have happened but the option for it to happen was taken out of my hands.

One of the party members was born in Freeport, so finding a jeweller/gem cutter shouldn't be an issue but I still think that is beside the point. He still shouldn't just say "Oh, and by the way, I swapped all my stuff over in the meantime." I can only see this sort of thing getting out of hand if it continues.

Olaf the Stout

 

[RigaMortus2]

I gotta admit, I can relate to this. While I do like rp and getting into character, spending thirty minutes of game time dickering over paper seems a waste of time to me. I'm in a game like this currently and it's driving me somewhat batty. Perhaps an idea would be to meet in the middle for things like this.

I had a player that did that. He spent almost the whole session picking threw a book trying to find a shield (of all things) appropriate for his character. So we coined the term "shield shopper" which relates to anyone wasting gaming time searching threw a book picking out items. Just a note: We often do the buying and selling of equipment between sessions when at all possible.

 

[Graf]

You’re using the term metagaming in a different way than its commonly used.

Metagaming normally means “having your character behave in a way that they wouldn’t because you, the player, have some kind of OOC information”. Like suddenly trying to cast bless on your crossbows because you see a tiger-guy with backwards facing hands is an example of metagaming.
(The player, not the character, knows this is a Rakshasha and they take special damage from blessed crossbow bolts).

The player is just “not roleplaying” (unless his character is greedy… then trying to drag out a bunch of almost-certain-to-be-worthless-items and trying to sell them is very much in character).

If that’s frustrating for you then you can take action on it, but people who don’t roleplay very rarely get better. You’re either into it or you aren’t.
So you either find a way to get comfortable with the players play style or work him out of the group.

 

[Illirion]

I can totally relate to what you're saying.
The guy in my game is really competitive in everything and he aims to win in whatever he does. An admirable trait perhaps, but not quite handy in a casual gaming group. On top of that he has also played a lot of computer rpgs and has even gone to the point where he tries to shoot someone in combat and complains about the -4 modifier to his roll ("cause that's not the way it works in a real rgp"). In his mind, D&D is trying to simulate a computer RPG instead of the other way around. Every time I offer a mission to the party he's the first to ask for a reward, and not quite subtly I might add. Whenever we're in combat he also aims to get significantly more kills than other party members and is noticably dissapointed and grumpy when he wasn't able to impact the combat in a significant way (and boasts a lot about his total pwnage when he does).

I find it really hard to combat this kind of behavior since it seems so deeply rooted in his personna'. I of course know that the right thing to do is discuss it openly with everyone, but I can't seem to pull it off. Especially in my group, where nobody takes things like that very serious anyway. I've even dealt with it the wrong way last session when they found an Otyough and I had the beast pick the metagamer up with his tentacle. Technically lifting him out of the combat from first round.

So said short, I really sympathise with your problem since I'd rather have a good character-focused roleplaying game as well, but the only right solution would be to talk it out, just like any other player problem (even though it's probably the most difficult to do).

 

[cthulhu_duck]

This annoys me a little. Does anyone else have an issue with their players simply telling you that they're converting their gold to gems or something similar? Am I being too much of a control freak?

It would irritate me. I'd be inclined to suggest letting the player know something like:

"In our group, players don't just 'exchange cash for gems' on the fly - I'd rather you'd run that past me and I'll let you know if you can find a gemcutter or jeweller and so on - depending on what you're converting, you may or may not be able to find a buyer etc.

It may not be what you're used to (if you've played before), but it's the way this group handles this kind of thing."

different people have different expectations - only communication can sort out the differences.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

You’re using the term metagaming in a different way than its commonly used.

Metagaming normally means “having your character behave in a way that they wouldn’t because you, the player, have some kind of OOC information”. Like suddenly trying to cast bless on your crossbows because you see a tiger-guy with backwards facing hands is an example of metagaming.
(The player, not the character, knows this is a Rakshasha and they take special damage from blessed crossbow bolts).

The player is just “not roleplaying” (unless his character is greedy… then trying to drag out a bunch of almost-certain-to-be-worthless-items and trying to sell them is very much in character).

If that’s frustrating for you then you can take action on it, but people who don’t roleplay very rarely get better. You’re either into it or you aren’t.
So you either find a way to get comfortable with the players play style or work him out of the group.

Graf,

True, not all of what I posted is meta-gaming in the true sense. Characters in-game would be aware that weapons have resale value so taking them is not really meta-gaming. Automatically converting their value into GP is meta-gaming since you are assuming (meta-gaming) that you can always get half the market value when you sell it.

Also things like trying to work out the optimal course to take in combat to aviod attacks of opportunity or get the most amount of people in area affect spells is meta-gaming in my opinion. These are things that a character in a game wouldn't necessarily know about.

So while not everything he does is meta-gaming, some of it definitely is (in my opinion)

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I wouldn't describe his actions as being "meta-gamey" so much as being "video-gamey". I would describe your player as maybe more of a casual gamer than anything else. He might be a butt-kicked too, in which case his primary motivation is just to move to the next action sequence as quickly as possible.

I had a meta-gamer in my group. This player would constantly try to evaluate where I wanted the party to go, so that he could go there to move the action forward. Plus, he would always justify his actions based on meta-game assumptions, like "we could proceed down this hallway even though we're slightly injured. We're only 6th level, the DM wouldn't throw a 10th level creature at us". Stuff like that. That's meta-gaming.

I do that to a certain degree, too, but I don't advertise it. Once in a campaign, my 1st level character brazenly spoke to an ancient red dragon (who was really more of an NPC in that campaign than a monster), because I knew the GM wouldn't kill my character after I'd spent 2 hours building the character with him just a few sessions prior. And I was right.


Anyway, I guess I don't have any real advice for you, other than to just say that his play style is obviously different. I would just try talking to him to find out what motivates him. Have him take the Robin Laws Game Style Meme. Someone else can post that link. I don't have it handy ATM.

That should tell you what his style is. I had all my players do that before we started so that I could get a sense of what they would each be motivated by. It's fairly accurate.

Ah, here it is.

http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=62192

Just out of interest Der Kluge, I got him to take this quiz (along with the rest of the group). He came up 75% Butt-Kicker (no surprises there) and 75% Storyteller (very strange). I have Robin Law's Guide to Good Gamemastering so I might re-read it and see what I can do to try and improve the situation.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Think of it like a fantasy novel... I sure wouldn't want to read a novel where the author spends 2-3 pages on the protagonist haggling over pearls, if that scene doesn't contribute to the story.

I might give him a roll to see what he *actually* gets, based on his Appraise skill, Sense Motive, etc. And definitely don't just give him whatever he asks for, if whatever he asks for is far outside of the ordinary of what he might actually be able to find. But I would save the roleplaying for when it really makes a difference. (If you want to roleplay an interesting persona for the money changer, that's one thing. But that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about here.)

I agree. This is how I handle such things personally.

And of course, shock treatment is sometimes good, when players think now they are in down-time where nothing happens. So sometimes adventure happens when they don't except it to hit them in the head. Before such moment going in details is good, kinda foreshadowing.

If player wants to take and make money of anything that is not nailed now (or they can prey loose), I don't see that so bad in sense of logic. Such scavenger personalities exist in real life. And I don't think greedy adventures are so unheard of either.

f he wants to make items look more sellable (to get more money than they are worth), skill checks, maybe craft checks for true pro, or just opposed checks (bluff) for someone just trying to fast talk the deal. And appraise, bluff, and sense motive for merchant. And give merchant motivation. Player can be dealing with honest one, or with cheater. Diplomacy can be used IMO as well for many honest cases. Intimidation, welll, let's just say that it probably causes some extra results. -> trouble.

Keep taps on what rare items are available if pc:s are wanting to pay something. And there might be wait times for some times (out of stock, next ship should arrive in two weeks). If you love book-keeping you can actually keep lists, if you don't stick to rolling. If you don't like player shopping from PHB. Randomize prices a bit with skill checks and make some stuff hard to get/seasonal. Make checks general and fast, not for each item, unless they are all very special.

If I want roleplay shopping trip as dm. I run few checks and then I say something like "Well, you got your x and y and z, you get a in two weeks if you willing to wait and pay half price in advance. You didn't find d. And merchants didn't seem to know what the heck w even was. And I might mention does pc have feeling he made good deal or not.

Oh and for maney converting (like to gems), make jeweler or money-lender or whoever take some extra portion, as his deal. Some & per some unit of money converted. No reason they should do it for free. Oh and what cthulhu_duck said.

Talking too much about tactics when combat is already going on is bad habit, but I don't think it's going to change, unless you push the rule someway. Sure you can take time to tell your own actions. But advising others is something character can do for about amount of one sentance as free action in character (10-20 words). So if it is more than that and happening in 6 second round just cut him off.

I think it's better for dm to act as tactical adviser to new players, and not let some player take that role, or they feel right to be the rule-guy to those players in future too.

Let him talk tactics when they are not in combat, and if it's too near next combat situation opponents might hear them and assault them, or just have more prep time.

If he uses meta-game terms (like feat names), it's really something one does easily so that person they are talking to understands what they are talking about. Some feel this bothering others do not.