Meta Rod with a Meta'ed Spell

[0-hr]

Could a wizard use a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Substitution on a Maximized Scorching Ray?

In other words, does the Max'ed ray count as a 5th level spell (and thus outside the limits of a lesser rod) or does it still count as a 2nd level spell even though it has been prepared in a 5th level slot?

 

[Nifft]

Heighten? No. That actually changes the spell's level.

The others? I'd allow it; it's a creative use. And the spell would still be blocked by a lesser sphere of invulnerability.

-- N

 

[ChimericDream]

Per the SRD:

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.

I would say that you could use the lesser rod in your example. I've never thought of doing this, but it looks like it works per RAW.

Edit: Dang... beat to the punch.

 

[Twowolves]

The PHB is pretty clear about the distinction between a actual spell's level and the level slot a spell takes up, usually for purposes of defining Heighten Spell or Globe of Invulnerability. Without looking up the specific wording of the Metamagic Rods to see if they are clear on their wording (which, we all know they are not), I'd say you have a second level spell in a 5th level slot, so yes, the rod should work.

 

[blargney the second]

Although I agree with the other posters' RAW interpretations, I wouldn't let it fly in my game. Using a Lesser Metamagic Rod on a spell that uses 5th level slot doesn't feel right, and it's not like the rods are hurting for usefulness already!
-blarg

 

[moritheil]

I'm astounded that this combination is being described as new by so many people. Piling on metamagics is in a sense the fundamental point of the rods.

Also, this is obvious to most people, but the good part of the fact that most metamagics do not increase spell level is their interaction with items such as minor rings of spell storing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, this is obvious to most people, but the good part of the fact that most metamagics do not increase spell level is their interaction with items such as minor rings of spell storing.

That's perhaps why the Ring specifically states "Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat."

In addition, we have this from the Feats chapter:

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

I personally generalise from these two sections and say "For the purpose of level limits in magic items, metamagic modifiers to spell level count". So for me, using a Lesser Rod of Empower Spell on a Fireball is fine, but on a Maximized Fireball is not, because for item limits, I'd count it as a 6th level spell.

-Hyp.

 

[shilsen]

That's perhaps why the Ring specifically states "Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat."

In addition, we have this from the Feats chapter:

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

I personally generalise from these two sections and say "For the purpose of level limits in magic items, metamagic modifiers to spell level count". So for me, using a Lesser Rod of Empower Spell on a Fireball is fine, but on a Maximized Fireball is not, because for item limits, I'd count it as a 6th level spell.

-Hyp.

Same here, for precisely the reasons you outlined.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Thanks Hyp.
It's never been allowed in our games, and I would be inclined to not allow using a lesser rod on an empowered fireball. It's good to know there is a strong indicator at least that supports the decision.

I'm not sure how the sudden metamagics would fit into this, it hasn't come up yet. The casters so far have spread thier resources like the rod and suddens out instead of pushing the issue.