WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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One thing id note, despite EN World being a D&D fansite, its also looked at as a place to talk all RPGs generally. The noise might make it hard to hear, but folks do have some good discussions on both the good and bad that you might not see on a more singular brand dedicated channel.

Otherwise, you missed one hell of an edition war that was preceded by other wars that forged some strong opinions over the decades.
We are at war with (edition). We have always been at war with (edition).
 

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A lot of D&D is influenced by whatever is popular in science fiction/fantasy. Gary's vision of fantasy was from the 60's and before; my influences are certainly from the 80's and D&D is very much taking on the wardrobe of modern fantasy.

Some aspects are anchored by the previous generation, but as that population ages, those tent poles are slowly being pulled up to be replaced by ones a little more modern. There's always still some facets from the past holding D&D in place, but its also growing to add in the new.

Along with that vision, whose playing and what they want out of play has evolved as well. D&D is fighting the generation wars, and its trying to make friends with too wide an age gap and ends up satisfying no one.
I think thats the fate of the tent pole franchise int he RPG space. On one hand, it gives D&D a sort of evergreen aspect that leaves it always an iconic experience with a fresh coat of paint. On the downside, there is always a push pull from folks that want focus on one or the other.

As much as folks bemoan their preferred franchise RPGs small impression on the market, nobody is saying Traveller needs more Star Wars in it or that Call of Cthulhu isnt Alien enough.
 

Hahaha. This is what I hear.

Without trying to derail this thread too far... Coming from a place in high school and through my 20's where I was embedded in the "jock-world" I unfortunately got caught up in the looking down on the "nerds" world (super regrettable and something that was great to work through because in reality I was as nerdy or even more nerdy than the people I was probably mean too). Anyway, I get involved in DnD through some Adventurers League open table stuff and fall in love with it. So I jump in and get involved in the community ONLY TO FIND OUT that INSIDE the community the same "hey, let's look down on DnD and the folks that like it" was happening.

Again, I'm sure that living through the way DnD has been ran and changed has been crazy to experience for long time players. I'm sure it's frustrating too. The bummer is that if you are hoping for the hobby to grow and thrive it is most likely assumed that DnD is the doorway in. That person will probably head to YouTube or internet articles to learn about the hobby and how the game works and avoiding the "DnD is dead" or "Why you should never play DnD" videos is tough. For someone that could very well be uncomfortable with the idea of trying a role-playing game those videos just turn people off and lead to "Eh, maybe I won't try it. I'll just play a video game instead" thoughts.
I think one issue involves the matter of what is "the community"? For some people, there is really only one community: D&D. This also might include some D&D-adjacent games as well. For other people, the community is TTRPGs as a whole. For others still, there is less a community or the community but a myriad of TTRPG communities.

Also, keep in mind that if you like playing other TTRPGs, having a hobby that is dominated so heavily by the singular game that is D&D can also be deeply frustrating. If you like board games as hobby, chances are you would sure as heck wanna be able to play other games than just Monopoly with people.

But it's like lots of other hobbies: once you get to know its ins and outs you see how you'd like things better this way or that way, you'd do X differently, why did they do Y when Z would've obviously been a better choice.
One difference is that TTRPG design is learned by playing or (moreso) running the game... So you can actually start hacking up the game to your liking, buuut there are lots of other games out there that might do what you want better, but your friends all want to still play DnD5e while you want to try out Pathfinder/Dungeon Crawl Classics/Into the Odd/whatever.
Pretty much this.
 

Couldn't agree more. As someone that wanted to get into the RPG world for decades and finally decided to jump in in 2019 I'm extremely grateful for what DnD does for the hobby. It was weirdly jarring though to see the amount of hatred online for the thing that I was falling in love with. I feel like I just tune it out now and don't quite understand the haters but again I'm new-er to the hobby. From a new person standing though DnD is awesome

I'm an old timer and I still think the game is awesome. It's great that there are other games and third party options out there for people that get tired of DnD but I still haven't gotten there with 5e, something I couldn't say about some older versions. What I personally like about DnD is the balance of rules and freeform play that's easy to get into and isn't overly cumbersome. It's not perfect but I have no problem finding plenty of people who enjoy the game just as much as I do. To me that's all that really matters that I can play a game and find plenty of people that enjoy playing so I don't pay much attention to the naysayers most of the time.

Unfortunately negativity gets more eyeballs than positivity so just like the news cycle focuses on the negative side of things instead of the positive, so are streamers. There are a few that come up as suggestions that will spin anything that could possibly be taken negative into the latest disaster of epic proportions. Much like the news cycle is going to focus on the latest natural disaster while ignoring the good things that are happening. As far as why people feel compelled to come on this forum solely to trash the game it's dedicated to I have no clue.
 

Also, keep in mind that if you like playing other TTRPGs, having a hobby that is dominated so heavily by the singular game that is D&D can also be deeply frustrating. If you like board games as hobby, chances are you would sure as heck wanna be able to play other games than just Monopoly with people.
For SURE with this. Makes sense. I just don't know that I would try to undercut Monopoly at most turns because I like playing Carcassonne

Unfortunately negativity gets more eyeballs than positivity so just like the news cycle focuses on the negative side of things instead of the positive, so are streamers. There are a few that come up as suggestions that will spin anything that could possibly be taken negative into the latest disaster of epic proportions. Much like the news cycle is going to focus on the latest natural disaster while ignoring the good things that are happening. As far as why people feel compelled to come on this forum solely to trash the game it's dedicated to I have no clue.
I hate that this makes all the sense in the world but it does in fact make all the sense in the world
 

For SURE with this. Makes sense. I just don't know that I would try to undercut Monopoly at most turns because I like playing Carcassonne
Monopoly is good at some things but bad at others. Same is true for Carcassonne. One potential issue is that people believe that Monopoly can do everything good, with little to no weaknesses, and/or spend their time trying to hack Monopoly to do what other pre-existing boardgames do well. Others can't conceive of boardgames as working any other way than how Monopoly does it. And I think that this ignores how sometimes the people who enthusiastically play Monopoly also spend their time likewise undercutting other games or depicting their rules as badwrongfun.
 

Couldn't agree more. As someone that wanted to get into the RPG world for decades and finally decided to jump in in 2019 I'm extremely grateful for what DnD does for the hobby. It was weirdly jarring though to see the amount of hatred online for the thing that I was falling in love with. I feel like I just tune it out now and don't quite understand the haters but again I'm new-er to the hobby. From a new person standing though DnD is awesome

I love it more now than ever and I've been playing for 30 years.

There are actually few people complaining about it online, it is just that there are a lot of them compared to the ones who are posting that they like it and they are posting a lot.
 

If Cattle & Cowboys had become the dominant game people would just be complaining about that instead. I think it was pretty inevitable that there would be one TTRPG with broad based appeal and I don't see the point of complaining about it. As far as I know they've never taken anti-competitive measures such as buying out companies for the purpose of shutting them down like many big corporations do, they've just sustained their dominance largely by producing a game that a lot of people want to play. If you aren't one of those people the good news is that there are still plenty of alternatives and with online play more options than ever to find people to play with.

I don't have a problem with different opinions and constructive criticism. Sometimes that's going to include comparing to other games or editions and of course there will always be things people don't like about just about anything. I can compare issues with 4e and 5e and say why I prefer one over the other. I can talk about issues that 3e had and explain why I prefer the 5e approach.

But then there's the constant drumbeat of "game bad" with nothing constructive added. Want to talk about how your games are too easy? We'll give some details and maybe someone will have suggestions. Say that the game isn't specifically designed for your tastes and that it's the fault of the game or just throw out generic meaningless statements of how a game having sustained popularity is somehow a personal affront and I'm going to disagree
I want 5e dead my good sir. Constructive is a secondary thing I want, if it's not dead then it can at least be good(or at least, good in my eyes)
 

when a thing becomes popular and mainstream it gets altered and watered down to the point that you lose what that was. After it falls out of the spotlight it can return to what it once was for those who loved it before all the added attention. Once the true spirit returns to the game I think many like my self might think about returning to see what the reverted edition looks like. But for now, this is not my version of the game i liked and will stick with the older ones and some retro-clones for now. It is like some games i ran back in the day, I have people see what we were doing want to join in and then fail to play or bring stuff to the game that had no place in it. Many times the other players would talk to them or even tell them that what they were doing had no place in the game and was dragging the game down making it less fun. I as the DM had to only step in a few times when I had a player who like a lawyer used the wording or lack of definition to gain an advantage. I of course corrected this as it came up and those people would get mad and leave and the rest of the group continued on playing the fun game we all liked. I specifically remember the entire whole stone skin issue back in the day when the spell didn;t say only so many could be applied, so the player just cast it over and over until he had hundreds of them on and was able to avoid many attacks. I saw this and stated that there was a max limit based upon the max you could roll on the die. A later errata was released stating exactly the same thing, this happened with many of my calls on rulings back in the day with 2nd edition, i had one player who would write them down and kept a rule book of my judgment calls, lol
 


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