WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.

 

[GobHag]

If it weren't for DnD there would just be a different system that dominated that people complained about. That or the hobby would be much, much smaller. I get that people love to complain about the big guy and certainly sometimes it's justified. But for the most part it just feels like people trying to be cool by dissing things other people happen to like, why else go to a site dedicated to a game just to trash talk it?

Exactly.

I prefer a continuous cycle of dominance, having D&D dominating for so long makes me nothing short but contemptuus of the RPG industry as a whole.

 

[Bomberooski]

If it weren't for DnD there would just be a different system that dominated that people complained about. That or the hobby would be much, much smaller. I get that people love to complain about the big guy and certainly sometimes it's justified. But for the most part it just feels like people trying to be cool by dissing things other people happen to like, why else go to a site dedicated to a game just to trash talk it?

Couldn't agree more. As someone that wanted to get into the RPG world for decades and finally decided to jump in in 2019 I'm extremely grateful for what DnD does for the hobby. It was weirdly jarring though to see the amount of hatred online for the thing that I was falling in love with. I feel like I just tune it out now and don't quite understand the haters but again I'm new-er to the hobby. From a new person standing though DnD is awesome

 

[Distracted DM]

Couldn't agree more. As someone that wanted to get into the RPG world for decades and finally decided to jump in in 2019 I'm extremely grateful for what DnD does for the hobby. It was weirdly jarring though to see the amount of hatred online for the thing that I was falling in love with. I feel like I just tune it out now and don't quite understand the haters but again I'm new-er to the hobby. From a new person standing though DnD is awesome

Your love is fresh- it hasn't been through decades of wear and tear, you're still enjoying and growing and learning things about it.

But it's like lots of other hobbies: once you get to know its ins and outs you see how you'd like things better this way or that way, you'd do X differently, why did they do Y when Z would've obviously been a better choice.
One difference is that TTRPG design is learned by playing or (moreso) running the game... So you can actually start hacking up the game to your liking, buuut there are lots of other games out there that might do what you want better, but your friends all want to still play DnD5e while you want to try out Pathfinder/Dungeon Crawl Classics/Into the Odd/whatever.
Or maybe the company that makes the game makes some ethically questionable choices, you're more plugged into the design space so you care, but other more casual/new folk don't know or care (or they are just as knowledgeable and don't think the choices are bad).

So those are some ways that you end up with people bashing on something you've just fallen in love with.

Edit: I guess another thing is that some people will become DnD hobbyists, while others become TTRPG hobbyists. So the TTRPG folk got in on DnD, but explored elsewhere and don't get why the DnD people don't explore, whereas the DnD folk are perfectly happy where they are and don't get why others would want to leave.

 

[Bomberooski]

Your love is fresh- it hasn't been through decades of wear and tear, you're still enjoying and growing and learning things about it.

But it's like lots of other hobbies: once you get to know its ins and outs you see how you'd like things better this way or that way, you'd do X differently, why did they do Y when Z would've obviously been a better choice.
One difference is that TTRPG design is learned by playing or (moreso) running the game... So you can actually start hacking up the game to your liking, buuut there are lots of other games out there that might do what you want better, but your friends all want to still play DnD5e while you want to try out Pathfinder/Dungeon Crawl Classics/Into the Odd/whatever.
Or maybe the company that makes the game makes some ethically questionable choices, you're more plugged into the design space so you care, but other more casual/new folk don't know or care (or they are just as knowledgeable and don't think the choices are bad).

So those are some ways that you end up with people bashing on something you've just fallen in love with.

Edit: I guess another thing is that some people will become DnD hobbyists, while others become TTRPG hobbyists. So the TTRPG folk got in on DnD, but explored elsewhere and don't get why the DnD people don't explore, whereas the DnD folk are perfectly happy where they are and don't get why others would want to leave.

For sure this makes sense but it comes across very petty. "Look at my game!!!" turns into "Look at my game because your game stinks". It's a weird vibe to watch as someone new.

But your post made a lot of sense and it's a good pillar for a new person to grasp.

 

[payn]

Couldn't agree more. As someone that wanted to get into the RPG world for decades and finally decided to jump in in 2019 I'm extremely grateful for what DnD does for the hobby. It was weirdly jarring though to see the amount of hatred online for the thing that I was falling in love with. I feel like I just tune it out now and don't quite understand the haters but again I'm new-er to the hobby. From a new person standing though DnD is awesome

One thing id note, despite EN World being a D&D fansite, its also looked at as a place to talk all RPGs generally. The noise might make it hard to hear, but folks do have some good discussions on both the good and bad that you might not see on a more singular brand dedicated channel.

Otherwise, you missed one hell of an edition war that was preceded by other wars that forged some strong opinions over the decades.

 

[AlViking]

Exactly.

I prefer a continuous cycle of dominance, having D&D dominating for so long makes me nothing short but contemptuus of the RPG industry as a whole.

If Cattle & Cowboys had become the dominant game people would just be complaining about that instead. I think it was pretty inevitable that there would be one TTRPG with broad based appeal and I don't see the point of complaining about it. As far as I know they've never taken anti-competitive measures such as buying out companies for the purpose of shutting them down like many big corporations do, they've just sustained their dominance largely by producing a game that a lot of people want to play. If you aren't one of those people the good news is that there are still plenty of alternatives and with online play more options than ever to find people to play with.

I don't have a problem with different opinions and constructive criticism. Sometimes that's going to include comparing to other games or editions and of course there will always be things people don't like about just about anything. I can compare issues with 4e and 5e and say why I prefer one over the other. I can talk about issues that 3e had and explain why I prefer the 5e approach.

But then there's the constant drumbeat of "game bad" with nothing constructive added. Want to talk about how your games are too easy? We'll give some details and maybe someone will have suggestions. Say that the game isn't specifically designed for your tastes and that it's the fault of the game or just throw out generic meaningless statements of how a game having sustained popularity is somehow a personal affront and I'm going to disagree

 

[Bomberooski]

One thing id note, despite EN World being a D&D fansite, its also looked at as a place to talk all RPGs generally. The noise might make it hard to hear, but folks do have some good discussions on both the good and bad that you might not see on a more singular brand dedicated channel.

Otherwise, you missed one hell of an edition war that was preceded by other wars that forged some strong opinions over the decades.

Hahaha. This is what I hear.

Without trying to derail this thread too far... Coming from a place in high school and through my 20's where I was embedded in the "jock-world" I unfortunately got caught up in the looking down on the "nerds" world (super regrettable and something that was great to work through because in reality I was as nerdy or even more nerdy than the people I was probably mean too). Anyway, I get involved in DnD through some Adventurers League open table stuff and fall in love with it. So I jump in and get involved in the community ONLY TO FIND OUT that INSIDE the community the same "hey, let's look down on DnD and the folks that like it" was happening.

Again, I'm sure that living through the way DnD has been ran and changed has been crazy to experience for long time players. I'm sure it's frustrating too. The bummer is that if you are hoping for the hobby to grow and thrive it is most likely assumed that DnD is the doorway in. That person will probably head to YouTube or internet articles to learn about the hobby and how the game works and avoiding the "DnD is dead" or "Why you should never play DnD" videos is tough. For someone that could very well be uncomfortable with the idea of trying a role-playing game those videos just turn people off and lead to "Eh, maybe I won't try it. I'll just play a video game instead" thoughts.

 

[payn]

Hahaha. This is what I hear.

Without trying to derail this thread too far... Coming from a place in high school and through my 20's where I was embedded in the "jock-world" I unfortunately got caught up in the looking down on the "nerds" world (super regrettable and something that was great to work through because in reality I was as nerdy or even more nerdy than the people I was probably mean too). Anyway, I get involved in DnD through some Adventurers League open table stuff and fall in love with it. So I jump in and get involved in the community ONLY TO FIND OUT that INSIDE the community the same "hey, let's look down on DnD and the folks that like it" was happening.

I too hung out with the jocks and socials in HS. I wasnt mean to the D&D kids at all, in fact I wanted to join them. They would never let me though im assuming they thought it was some type of trap or just a social circle that shouldnt be crossed. I didnt get into RPGs regularly until later in life and also through organized play which is awesome.

Again, I'm sure that living through the way DnD has been ran and changed has been crazy to experience for long time players. I'm sure it's frustrating too. The bummer is that if you are hoping for the hobby to grow and thrive it is most likely assumed that DnD is the doorway in. That person will probably head to YouTube or internet articles to learn about the hobby and how the game works and avoiding the "DnD is dead" or "Why you should never play DnD" videos is tough. For someone that could very well be uncomfortable with the idea of trying a role-playing game those videos just turn people off and lead to "Eh, maybe I won't try it. I'll just play a video game instead" thoughts.

Unfortunately, influencers bread their butter with incendiary rhetoric and its had a very poor effect on discourse in general. I work for a corporation and we have a slack set up. There is a video games channel and one kid comes in super hot every other day. "This sucks..." "these devs are terrible people..." just the hottest negative takes imaginable and eventually they got booted (which cant be a good look at the place you work for). While yes, the e wars happened some time ago, I have seen a particular descent into negativity since the earliest days of the internet. It is rather unfortunate.

All you can do is take that good will and put it to constructive use. Develop a well oiled back to allow those nuclear takes to just run off and not effect you. Be the energy you want receive in return, and it will come around. You cant change others attitudes (though it doesnt hurt to try) but you have total control over your own.

Welcome to D&D!

 

[Bomberooski]

I too hung out with the jocks and socials in HS. I wasnt mean to the D&D kids at all, in fact I wanted to join them. They would never let me though im assuming they thought it was some type of trap or just a social circle that shouldnt be crossed. I didnt get into RPGs regularly until later in life and also through organized play which is awesome.

Unfortunately, influencers bread their butter with incendiary rhetoric and its had a very poor effect on discourse in general. I work for a corporation and we have a slack set up. There is a video games channel and one kid comes in super hot every other day. "This sucks..." "these devs are terrible people..." just the hottest negative takes imaginable and eventually they got booted (which cant be a good look at the place you work for). While yes, the e wars happened some time ago, I have seen a particular descent into negativity since the earliest days of the internet. It is rather unfortunate.

All you can do is take that good will and put it to constructive use. Develop a well oiled back to allow those nuclear takes to just run off and not effect you. Be the energy you want receive in return, and it will come around. You cant change others attitudes (though it doesnt hurt to try) but you have total control over your own.

Welcome to D&D!

Much appreciated. Excited about the discourse here. Going to try to get into DM-ing a game for buddies that don't know anything about the hobby so I know a lot of the threads here will be super useful.

And I'm with you about the feeling of social circles being crossed. What a freaking weird time it is in your younger days trying to navigate stuff that you realize doesn't matter when you get older.

 

[Stormonu]

A lot of D&D is influenced by whatever is popular in science fiction/fantasy. Gary's vision of fantasy was from the 60's and before; my influences are certainly from the 80's and D&D is very much taking on the wardrobe of modern fantasy.

Some aspects are anchored by the previous generation, but as that population ages, those tent poles are slowly being pulled up to be replaced by ones a little more modern. There's always still some facets from the past holding D&D in place, but its also growing to add in the new.

Along with that vision, whose playing and what they want out of play has evolved as well. D&D is fighting the generation wars, and its trying to make friends with too wide an age gap and ends up satisfying no one.