Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Instead of accusing someone of bad math, maybe you should check your own work.
Go ahead, check my maths, you won't find anything wrong.
But even with your mistakes
See above.
we come to the same conclusion, TWF is generally better.
Nope.
So if it is generally better why are people calling it a trap and why does it need to be modified?
Because it is a trap. It provides slightly better damage than the duelist without any feats, but loses to the Archer and the GWF if they use their -5/+10. At least, at lower levels.
 

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Yunru

Banned
Banned
The damage for 11th level fighter would be: (1d8 +5) * 4 attacks = 9.5 * 4 = 38 points of damage without taking misses or crits into account (we agree here).
At a 65% chance to hit (your 17 column): (1d8+5) * 0.6 + (1d8+5) * 2 * .05 = 9.5 * 0.6 + 19 * 0.05 = 5.7 + 0.95 = 6.65 * 4 attacks = 26.6 aDPR. (here you are off by 1).
Again with the bad maths. Crits DON'T add static bonuses.

You don't seem to be taking into account the average damage of GWF [2d6 = average 7 without GWF, but 7.42 with GWF]
What? No seriously, what? The average of a GWF Greatsword is (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/3, or 25/3, which is 8.333(...). Therefore three attacks with a +5 modifier are 40 damage (25+15).

My analysis was done taking into account GWM, which should only add a row to your table not 5 columns.
Wrong. It lowers the bounds of hitting on more than a 20/missing on more than a 1, adding 5 columns.

I agree action surge doesn't give 8 attacks (only 7), but as everyone else is only getting 6 attacks, it doesn't really help or hurt TWF. But this also affects the hand crossbow user which might make the heavy x-bow a better choice.
Wrong. Because the TWF still only gets the same bonus, whereas the others are now getting three more instances of their bonuses.

It is worse than Archery at high to hit numbers.
It's worse than Archery at almost all numbers.
 


Satyrn

First Post
I did maths for three years at university. And the only thing I learned is that I really needed to check my workings more. So now I do :p

Makes sense. But you're still pressing your luck by declaring yourself error-free. These are the moments the mischievous math gods wait for. If you haven't prayed sufficiently, One might just perform a phantom edit. :p
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
Again with the bad maths. Crits DON'T add static bonuses.

You are correct, I was still thinking v3 where the ability bonus was doubled. But that is a reading problem not a math problem.

What? No seriously, what? The average of a GWF Greatsword is (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/3, or 25/3, which is 8.333(...). Therefore three attacks with a +5 modifier are 40 damage (25+15).

Ah, I see my mistake here, I was using a d12 for some reason instead of 2d6. That definitely shows that Greatsword is better than Greataxe with GWF.

Wrong. It lowers the bounds of hitting on more than a 20/missing on more than a 1, adding 5 columns.

For GWM/Sharpshooter, we only care where the inflection point occurs, which seems to be around a 25% to hit (more or less). Above that it will always be better than not taking the penalty, so to each their own. If you feel that adding 5 columns prove the point then more power to you.

Wrong. Because the TWF still only gets the same bonus, whereas the others are now getting three more instances of their bonuses.

Uh what? A Fighter with TWF and DW at level 11 gets 7 attacks each with a damage bonus (3 attacks + bonus + 3 attacks with action surge). You still get your primary attacks on the action surge, you just don't get an additional bonus attack. Everyone else is getting 6 attacks. That looks like 7 applications of damage bonuses vs 6 applications of damage bonuses. I haven't run the numbers but 9.5 points isn't likely to make it change position when averaged out.

It's worse than Archery at almost all numbers.

You are being pedantic. I said exactly the same thing about archery vs twf -- using your own table btw. Now if you had run Sharpshooter we might be able to say it is always worse.

I did maths for three years at university. And the only thing I learned is that I really needed to check my workings more. So now I do :p

Really, three years of math at university? Wow! Did you need a cookie? We are just doing basic math here with some basic of statistics. I would hope you could achieve that by secondary school.

You seem fairly uptight. This is a message board about a game. You are really invested in the word 'wrong'. How about just a civil discussion instead without all of the BS?

TWF is worse than archery, something we both had already determined. Again by your own table, it looks to be better than one-handed or two-handed. TWF also gives a +1 AC (though probably not that useful at 11th level) and allows the ability to deliver two different damage types. This only gets better if the weapons can be enchanted or poisoned.

So this doesn't look like a trap to me. Of the 4 styles it is generally better than two of them for producing damage. It certainly doesn't seem to need a boost or fiddly mechanics.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
You are correct, I was still thinking v3 where the ability bonus was doubled. But that is a reading problem not a math problem.
Wrong. When you factor it into your maths, it becomes a maths problem.

Ah, I see my mistake here, I was using a d12 for some reason instead of 2d6. That definitely shows that Greatsword is better than Greataxe with GWF.
Wrong. Weapon I guess, sounds like you confused Greatsword and Greataxe.

For GWM/Sharpshooter, we only care where the inflection point occurs, which seems to be around a 25% to hit (more or less). Above that it will always be better than not taking the penalty, so to each their own. If you feel that adding 5 columns prove the point then more power to you.
Wrong. Since we need to compare it to TWF damage, not just it's own damage without the -5/+10.

Uh what? A Fighter with TWF and DW at level 11 gets 7 attacks each with a damage bonus (3 attacks + bonus + 3 attacks with action surge). You still get your primary attacks on the action surge, you just don't get an additional bonus attack. Everyone else is getting 6 attacks. That looks like 7 applications of damage bonuses vs 6 applications of damage bonuses. I haven't run the numbers but 9.5 points isn't likely to make it change position when averaged out.
Wrong, an Action Surging Archer applies the +2 seven times. An Action Surging GWF applies his feature 6 to 7 times. An Action Surging Duelist applies his feature 6 times. An action surging TWF applies his feature... once.

You are being pedantic.
Wrong.

I said exactly the same thing about archery vs twf -- using your own table btw.
Wrong. You only included high numbers, rather than "exceeding 75%".

Really, three years of math at university?
Wrong. Three years of maths. I didn't spend three years learning how to perform exactly one operation.

Wow! Did you need a cookie?
Wrong. I need a life.

We are just doing basic math here with some basic of statistics.
Wrong. We're doing more than one operation, therefore we are doing maths.

I would hope you could achieve that by secondary school.
Wrong. I could do that by the middle of primary school.

You seem fairly uptight.
Wrong. I am all of the chill.

This is a message board about a game.
Wrong. It is about many different games.

You are really invested in the word 'wrong'.
Wrong. And I wouldn't make an entire post just to invest more into it.

How about just a civil discussion instead without all of the BS?
Wrong. That is what's happening.

Of the 4 styles it is generally better than two of them for producing damage.
Wrong. Which I shall prove when I get around to doing the -5/+10 for GWF.

It certainly doesn't seem to need a boost or fiddly mechanics.
Wrong. It definitely seems to need a boost given how often that comes up.
 


5ekyu

Hero
Go ahead, check my maths, you won't find anything wrong.
See above.
Nope.

Because it is a trap. It provides slightly better damage than the duelist without any feats, but loses to the Archer and the GWF if they use their -5/+10. At least, at lower levels.
"Because it is a trap. It provides slightly better damage than the duelist without any feats, but loses to the Archer and the GWF if they use their -5/+10. At least, at lower levels"

This sounds like an argument for a 5/10 feat for TWF (or removal of the others) not a support that TWF itself is a trap.

I mean, surely the thing you would want to create to match up to GWF and feat would nbe TWF and feat - right? You dont wsnt TWF no fears to match GWF plus feat, right?
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
"Because it is a trap. It provides slightly better damage than the duelist without any feats, but loses to the Archer and the GWF if they use their -5/+10. At least, at lower levels"

This sounds like an argument for a 5/10 feat for TWF (or removal of the others) not a support that TWF itself is a trap.

I mean, surely the thing you would want to create to match up to GWF and feat would nbe TWF and feat - right? You dont wsnt TWF no fears to match GWF plus feat, right?

I don't remember the exact numbers, but without feats on either side (in the above the TWF has Dual Wielder), the GWF pulls ahead at the start, slips a bit at level 4, regains it at level 5, slips again at 6, then pulls ahead (and stays there) at levels 11+.
 

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