Mind Blank defeats the effect of a True Strike?

[Zenon]

That was my gut reaction too, Zenon...but consider:

1. The 8th level spell that protects from all Divinations should protect you from the 1st level Divination, shouldn't it?

2. In the words of The Sage, "defense over offense."

3. Who the Divination targets is irrelevant since most, if not all, Divinations target the caster.

But if you read the description of Mind Blank, it even prevent more powerful spells from working (like Wish and Miracle) where it's area of affect is concerned.

It me, Mind Blank was always a very specialized spell, good vs. Commune, Scrying, Detect Alignment, etc from the most powerful sources. I don't believe that they had it in mind to stop True Strike.

From the SRD:

Mind Blank

Abjuration
Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 day
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about him. In the case of scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Looking at this and paying attention to the first sentence in the description, the subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence or read emotions or thoughts. Even though the second sentence says it protects against information gathering by divination spells, it is in reference to the first sentence (and I don't feel the sencond sentence is meant to stand on its own).

True Strike does not fall into that category. It does not state that no Divination spell works vs. them, only ones which attempt to gather thoughts and emotion.

 

[Number47]

No, the second sentence calls out more things that Mind Blank prevents. It is not simply a clarification of the first sentence. In other words, Mind Blank prevents spells like Domination or Color Spray because they are mind affecting, even though they do not detect or reveal anything about the Blanked person.

 

[Zenon]

Hmm,

Just thinking that this opens up another can of worms.

What about Minor Globe of Invunerability (and Major) and Anti MAgic Shell? If we are to assume that Mind Blank protects from a Divination affecting the target, why do not the others?

After all, even though you cast the True Strike on yourself, you're saying that protections I may have cast on me would stop the spell effects.

 

[Forrester]

Ah, this reminds me of the fun fun fun discussion we had on the other boards with regard to whether Nondetection would prevent someone who was Invisible from being detected through "See Invisible" or True Sight or other divinations. Assuming they succeeded in making their contested roll, of course.

My opin then, and now, was that Nondetection should work only against scrying types of abilities, Sage be damned.

Do you think Mind Blank should protect someone from See Invisibility? The latter is a Divination, after all.

Whether it should work on True Strike is a different story. . . technically, True Strike doesn't have a target. Technically. So:


1) Going by the straight rules, Mind Blank protects against all Divinations, so True Strike shouldn't work.
2) Going by the rules w/some reasonable interpretation, Mind Blank only works against targetted effects, and True Strike officially doesn't target someone, so True Strike should work. Note that this interpretation weenies out by reworking the official text of Mind Blank but not True Strike.

Which is why I prefer #3:

3) Mind Blank should protect against divinations that target the normal presence of the subject. True Strike, for the spell to make sense, seems to require the targetting of a subject -- the one about to be attacked. So in my campaign, Mind Blank will probably work against True Strike.

YMMV. In fact, in this case, I'm sure it does. This is what happens when you try to apply common sense to D&D.

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

I think that True Strike is very much like a scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, such as arcane eye, and therefore the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.

If the spell cannot detect them, it cannot give you a +20 to hit them. Scrying can be purely visual information. It does not have to have anything to do with thoughts or emotions, and yet it is foiled by Mind Blank.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

In other words, if you just scried an area containing a mind blanked individual, you could see them.

Blatantly false. Please read the spell.

From the SRD on Mind Blank:

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about him. In the case of scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Scrying an area with a Mind Blanked individual does not reveal the individual.

As far as the issue at hand...

The only argument I can see for supporting "Mind blank defeats True Strike" is based on the "information gathering by divination spells" clause of Mind Blank.

True Strike grants an insight bonus which means:

Insight: An insight bonus makes a character better at what he’s doing because he has an almost precognitive knowledge of factors pertinent to the activity.

In other words, insight is "knowledge in advance" (from definition of precognitive) about the activity.

Now we ask "Does the 'knowledge in advance' of True Strike satisfy 'information gathering' clause of Mind blank?" This appears to be the case, so my interpretation is Mind Blank nullifies True Strike.

 

[Zenon]

No, the second sentence calls out more things that Mind Blank prevents. It is not simply a clarification of the first sentence. In other words, Mind Blank prevents spells like Domination or Color Spray because they are mind affecting, even though they do not detect or reveal anything about the Blanked person.

No. This is a clarification because Dominate and Color Spray influence the thought or emotions. Thus the second sentence refers directly to the first. Any spell that can influence another mind would be prevented.

 

[Al]

Mind blank wins.

Personally, I am a fencer.

This may sound irrelevant, but it leads me on to think as to the mechanics of True Strike. In fencing, one has to guess what the opponent will do to parry, block or counterattack. Most of the sport is guessing what your opponent will do, and trumping it as appropriate.

Now, I would argue that True Strike, being both a Divination and granting an insight bonus, is knowing exactly what your opponent will do and being able to attack in such a way that you confound his defenses. He would block to the left for example, and you attack to the right. It's similar to Foresight.

Since this interpretation of True Strike implies reading the opponent's mind, since it is a Divination and since it provides an insight bonus, it seems logical that Mind Blank WHICH specifically prevents Divination and specifically prevents mind-reading should defeat against True Strike.

 

[Zenon]

In other words, insight is "knowledge in advance" (from definition of precognitive) about the activity.

Now we ask "Does the 'knowledge in advance' of True Strike satisfy 'information gathering' clause of Mind blank?" This appears to be the case, so my interpretation is Mind Blank nullifies True Strike.

But does True Strike give the caster knowledge in advance of where he should swing (no matter what the target, which is why none has to be declared beforehand) or knowledge in advance of where a certain target would be (which is what Mind Blank would protect against)? If this is the case, why is the targeting of True Strike left open? Why are you not forced to pick a target that you will swing against when casting?

I know where's no good answers to this, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here....

 

[rhammer2]

I agree with your analysis of the spells.

I think that True Strike is very much like a scrying that scans an area that the creature is in, such as arcane eye, and therefore the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.

If the spell cannot detect them, it cannot give you a +20 to hit them. Scrying can be purely visual information. It does not have to have anything to do with thoughts or emotions, and yet it is foiled by Mind Blank.