MM4 Table of Contents up

[Sammael]

The punchline is that this thread is pretty much worthless for feedback because, you know, the book isn't out yet.

Hi Mike.

I have provided (in other threads) at least five reasons why Redspawn Arcaniss (previewed on the WotC site) is an example of lazy design. The short version of my argument would be: it's a monstrous humanoid with a few dragon immunities and the sorcerer spellcasting ability. There is absolutely nothing new or exciting about this monster.

I am pretty sure it would take me at most 10 minutes to "design" it (i.e. stat it up), which would imply that it took the WotC author (who has infinitely more game knowledge and design experience than me, plus access to internal WotC electronic tools) all of 2-3 minutes to do so. The rest of his time was obviously spent making up some third-grade filler text (i.e. what passes for ecology these days).

Would you care to comment on the Redspawn Arcaniss and explain how it is an example of innovative game design?

 

[Pants]

Hi Mike.

I have provided (in other threads) at least five reasons why Redspawn Arcaniss (previewed on the WotC site) is an example of lazy design. The short version of my argument would be: it's a monstrous humanoid with a few dragon immunities and the sorcerer spellcasting ability. There is absolutely nothing new or exciting about this monster.

I am pretty sure it would take me at most 10 minutes to "design" it (i.e. stat it up), which would imply that it took the WotC author (who has infinitely more game knowledge and design experience than me, plus access to internal WotC electronic tools) all of 2-3 minutes to do so. The rest of his time was obviously spent making up some third-grade filler text (i.e. what passes for ecology these days).

Would you care to comment on the Redspawn Arcaniss and explain how it is an example of innovative game design?

The other side of the coin is that you cannot judge an entire book based on one or two things (and I LIKED the tree people!).

Every book has its stinkers and if the worst of the book were used to showcase the rest of it, well then, that was bad decision making on their part. Then again, the book may completely suck and I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but until then, crying foul about something you haven't even seen strikes me as being the true epitome of idiocy.

 

[Sammael]

If Redspawn Arcaniss is the worst monster in the book and was chosen by Marketing to represent the said book, they need to fire the Marketing person who did it.

You'll note, however, that I asked Mike to comment on the Arcaniss alone, not the rest of the book. Since it (and the likewise horribly designed Wizened Elders) are the only things WotC has thus far chosen to show us, there is nothing else I can go by. Surely, you can't expect me to buy the book on the merit of two creatures, both of which aren't exactly examples of great design? Or the ToC (which does have a nifty new format, by the way) alone, when we don't know if half of those creatures aren't nearly as cool as they sound, or whether the stat blocks are as mangled as those in MM3 and FC1?

 

[Knight Otu]

Hi Mike.

I have provided (in other threads) at least five reasons why Redspawn Arcaniss (previewed on the WotC site) is an example of lazy design. The short version of my argument would be: it's a monstrous humanoid with a few dragon immunities and the sorcerer spellcasting ability. There is absolutely nothing new or exciting about this monster.

Well, as I recall, it heals when casting fire spells. A small saving grace, and it isn't that terrible. But not the best choice given that they hyped this preview by announcing it in the news box on the homepage.

The other, secretly previewed dragonspawn (I think it was a greenspawn?) is much, much worse.

 

[Pants]

Since it (and the likewise horribly designed Wizened Elders) are the only things WotC has thus far chosen to show us, there is nothing else I can go by.

Another dragonspawn was previewed, a green one. Basically a draconic rogue of some sort, or at least, about as inventive as the Arcaniss.

I kinda liked the Wizened Elder.

Surely, you can't expect me to buy the book on the merit of two creatures, both of which aren't exactly examples of great design?

Whatever happened to 'looking through it before purchasing?'

 

[Mercule]

The punchline is that this thread is pretty much worthless for feedback because, you know, the book isn't out yet.

We don't have too many specific bits, that's true. And, no one should be making any absolute determinations, at this point.

If I had to give one, single reason why I'm uneasy about this book, I'd say it's the Spawn of Tiamat. No, I haven't seen all the entries. I've seen the picture of the Razorfiend mini and I've read the write-up of the Arcaniss. I've also gathered a bit of an idea what the Spawn are about -- chromatic soldiers of some stripe, apparently created from a blending of chromatic and human(oid) blood. If that basic concept is true, then I'm not going to like the Spawn, period, because I think that's a lame idea. I also know I don't like the previews I mentioned above.

The fact that 1/6 of the book is taken up by what I consider to be a very bad creature has me a bit concerned about the rest of it. That the Spawn seem to have been promoted by WotC as the highlight of MM4 has me concerned about where WotC is planning to go with the game.

Who knows, though. I may thumb through the book at Barnes and Noble and decide Spawn are pretty neat. Stranger things have happenned.

 

[DMH]

C'mon, flying extraplanar shark thing? Someone in 2e was smoking something funky when they thought that thing up. It doesn't have anything remotely noteworthy about it other than it's a stupid, stupid monster.

Well it is stupid, but it was based on a better creature from Gamma World. The terleen is a flying baracuda (sp?) with laser reflecting feathers. It sounds silly, but considering many of the GW critters from the eariler editions, this fits right in.

 

[gizmo33]

I have provided (in other threads) at least five reasons why Redspawn Arcaniss (previewed on the WotC site) is an example of lazy design.

This also provides several examples of that sort of "overblown internet hyperbole"-type thing that Mearles is talking about. The ironic thing is that I probably agree in general with much of what you're saying here that's game related when it comes to the latest crop of WotC hardbacks, but "lazy", "third-grade" and that sort of thing makes it hard to have a constructive conversation about it.

Granted, we really don't know what's in the MM IV, but I can imagine that the point of posting the Table of Contents was to give some indication. And I think we can fairly assume that the ToC tells the story somewhat accurately.

I'm pretty sure I can guess what a "Githyanki Soldier" is going to be. If it were going to be a flavor-text block with some unique/interesting insights into a githyanki soldier, then it would be a point in favor of the book IMO. If it's a stat block of a githyanki with some fighter levels and a special weapon, then it's a point against. Something tells me that when "Hordes of the Astral" is published, it's all going to be rehashed anyway.

That doesn't mean the writers are lazy or third graders. It means that MM IV will be yet another hardback book from WotC that I will not buy, and that's disappointing to a long-time fan of the game.

 

[d20Dwarf]

Yes, we read this board.

The interesting thing about fan feedback is that the message and the messenger invariably become intertwined. If people are shrieking and screaming about something in a totally insulting or unreasonable manner, it's a lot easier to say, "Well, the people who don't like that are shrieking, screaming luddites. We can ignore them."

Even when there are people saying the same thing in a reasonable way, the shriekers tend to drown them out. I think it's an artifact of the Internet that the extreme message is what sticks, but you retain the delivery rather than the content.

The punchline is that this thread is pretty much worthless for feedback because, you know, the book isn't out yet.

Oh Tuzenbach, now you've done it, you've brought my corporate masters into the thread! Oh please, Mr. Mearls, I hope I made the book sound the awesomest ever!!!!




Oh, and for clarity's sake, I'm not a contributing author to the MMIV, so it's not a case of a designer defending or hyping his own work. I just really thought it was an excellent product and so I jumped in to give my views.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If Redspawn Arcaniss is the worst monster in the book and was chosen by Marketing to represent the said book, they need to fire the Marketing person who did it.

Yes, because firing someone who made a single questionable judgement call is how it's done in the real world outside ENWorld posters' mothers' basements.