MM4 Table of Contents up

[MerricB]

Anyone know if there are going to be spawn of bahamat? It seems uneven to have only evil dragonspawn.

Yes. They're called Dragonborn, and they're in Races of the Dragon.

Bahamut has a completely different way about it, of course.

Cheers!

 

[BryonD]

OMG, Eric. I can not BELIEVE you remember that. Yeah, on the steps after boot camp and the slide show.

I was so impressed to meet THE Eric Noah. You were the talk of the WotC halls at the time (where I worked full time in 2000).

Heh!, sounds like Harry Potter stuff!!!

 

[Staffan]

Even still, artists that flame out are about as rare as writers that flame out (What *is* that smell, anyway?).

Oooh... subtle.

 

[Pants]

The Planescape version was different than the 3e FF one, and nowhere near as hokey! When I first saw the one in the FF, I laughed. Just as I did with the Senmurv and Fossergrim pics. It's all about the artwork.

No, I'm sorry, the PS version is just as hokey.

Your opinion is badwrong!

 

[Voadam]

(Beef and Black Olive, by the way, though straight pepperoni is good too.)

Owen K.C. Stephens

Black olives, bleah. I'll take a slice of the pepperoni though when you buy, thanks

 

[BryonD]

It's okay to be dissappointed for any reason at all.

OK, but some justifications are more reasonable than others....

Do keep in mind the classed monsters are less than 15% of the page count, however.

hmmm. I must admit that I appear to have over-rated the density.

Tough call. But it can come up with any game-type book. What if you want rules for shadow magic, but hate everything else in Tome of Magic? What if you love Ninja, but hate everything else in Complete Adventurer? You're just going to have to decide if this book has enough utility for you.

Well sure. I'm not trying to get you make a choice for me. I'm just trying to frame my point.

Anyway, I have a different take on this arguement.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the assumption that X% of any book is not going to be for me. The problem comes in when a new book comes out and Y% is dedicated to a whole new subtopic that is not for me. The assumption you make is that Y will just be part of X. That is not a good assumption. I'm down to 100-Y and X% of THAT will still be "not for me". So instead of 100-X good stuff I'm down to (100-Y)*(100-X).

Now, as you pointed out, Y may be a smaller number than I feared. So that certainly helps.

For some people, new classed ogres are a huge bonus. That's more useable stat blocks without having to introduce whole new ecologies or communities. They -have- ogres in their game, they're unlikely to add a "corrupture" just because it's in some monster book. For you, the balance seems to be different.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm certain that it is less valueable to me than many others out there. But that does not mean I am decided against it. It could still be worth the $$.

I've stated my real concern before. And if it has been responded to then I apologize because I missed it. It is this: Why should I be stuck with one specific level of classed ogre? Providing a range of class levels would be geomterically more valueable. When you are putting levels on monsters, one size fits all seems (to me, imho) to be a very poor design choice. Can you speak to that?

No, my adviuce, as a gamer, is "Don't buy this book until you've got a good idea it's worth it to you." Flip through a copy if you can. Talk to friends that buy it. Check the actual word counts of various entries. Consider how many pages of dragons and dinosaurs from the MM you never used (or whatever critters you haven't used -- almost no one gets them all into one campaign.) See if anything does spark your interest. Look at your gaming budget, and then make a judgement call.

As I've also said before, no other publishers seem to want my money, so my gaming budget is burning a hole in my pocket. :/

But I also don't want to throw money away.

I pretty much buy on-line so flip through isn't a great option. But I think I'll just hold off and do that at a mall eventually.

As a contributor, I have no special advice. I did my best. We all did. But we are not unique snowflakes. We don't game with you, buy you pizza, or tell stories about how your Paladin once one-shot a beholder with a critical hit while charging and smiting evil. We don't know what you need. Only you need that. We try to make as many people as happy as possible, with products that have the broadest appeal they can. Only you know if you're our target audiance.

Owen K.C. Stephens

I understand that. And I certainly don't hold you responsible. I'm confident that if you had more control then this product would be on a level with Advanced Gamemasters Guide and we would not be having this conversation. (And if you think I'm kissing up now, you need to go back and read this thread again. If I like it I say so and if I don't I say so. But I only tell the truth.)

As much as it may seem to the contrary, I REALLY don't expect anything to be even 0.001% crafted to my personal expectations.
On this specific matter, I really think, in my very possibly way off opinion, that two different product types have been diluted and two different titles could have been produced, each of which would be superior to the actual product.
But even if God comes down and says I'm right about that, I don't believe my opinion should carry any weight with WotC. I'm just one of the nobodies on a web site.

But it is an open forum and I do have an opinion on the matter.

I REALLY don't have a "you are not serving me personally" attitude on this. Truly, not even a little bit. I can't stress enough how much that just isn't there.
If your product doesn't serve me, then I won't buy it. But there is no heat in that.

I just have questions that, to me, make sense.

 

[Mercule]

Anyway, I have a different take on this arguement.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the assumption that X% of any book is not going to be for me. The problem comes in when a new book comes out and Y% is dedicated to a whole new subtopic that is not for me. The assumption you make is that Y will just be part of X. That is not a good assumption. I'm down to 100-Y and X% of THAT will still be "not for me". So instead of 100-X good stuff I'm down to (100-Y)*(100-X).

Now, as you pointed out, Y may be a smaller number than I feared. So that certainly helps.

That's a very good way of putting it. In this case, Y is the NPC stats. But, the Spawn section is so large, in it's own right, that I'm mentally finding myself throwing it into Y, rather than X. That's almost Y=33. I assume that the remainder of the book will have a normal X, but that means a much smaller end value.

 

[Razz]

It's not always about time before the game. Sometimes it's about time during the game. I just had a thread going about "secrets to winging it" -- if I want to run a more free-flowing game, then pre-statted characters are going to be pretty helpful to me. What I resent is the condescending, there's-only-one-right-way-to-play attitude from Razz and others. It's rude, and there's no getting around it.


If you don't like something, fine! Say it, sing it, do a tap dance! But to go around painting those who think it might be fun, or useful, or helpful, or interesting as stupid and lazy and in need of hand-holding is just wrong.

Oh, again, I like how I get pointed out one these boards, yet I've seen much more sarcastic and ruder comments than mine made on these boards. :\ It's ok though, I have low Charisma IRL, it probably applies to the web as well. Go figure!

I never said there's a "only one way to do it" sort of thing, I am saying I am a paying customer too. I really would love to have what new monsters there actually are in MM4...but I can't. And I never will, because I am boycotting the book in order to lower the sales with the high hope that when or if a Monster Manual 5 comes out, I won't see 50 versions of "Orc (insert random adjective)". Same process as voting. Every one counts!

And on a deeper note, I simply don't like many of the new routes WotC have been taking since Races of Destiny and I have seen a lot of people disappointed with a lot of the different changes, not to mention lower page counts and the same price value. When there's a sudden rise of piracy with D&D books in the future cause of their "new trends", don't say I never told ya so.

And to everyone here, please respond to my statements as objectively as possible. It seems people's passions are overriding their sensibility and the Hulk-like just want to "smash Razz now!" comments sort of are unnecessary. My statements are as blank as anything, text on a computer monitor does not convey emotion nor are they expressive. No one can truly state I am being "beligerent", for example, because it would take one to hear a tone of voice, body language, and facial expression to make those judgements. Stop reading imaginary things between the lines, in other words.

 

[Razz]

As a contributor, I have no special advice. I did my best. We all did. But we are not unique snowflakes. We don't game with you, buy you pizza, or tell stories about how your Paladin once one-shot a beholder with a critical hit while charging and smiting evil. We don't know what you need. Only you need that. We try to make as many people as happy as possible, with products that have the broadest appeal they can. Only you know if you're our target audiance.

Owen K.C. Stephens

There are easier ways to do that. Increase the page counts. MM4 as a 260 page book or even a 280 would've just been perfect for a majority of people. There'd be enough for everyone. Or maybe bigger Web Enhancements for them online. I can see that 15% easily placed as a Web Enhancement on the website. What's funny is those maps in the book are also going to be put for free on the website eventually, so people are also stuck paying for something that is going to eventually be free. Could've minused the maps and added more monsters.

But then again, you guys would probably just stick in more classed NPCs if the page count was larger anyway... :\

 

[ColonelHardisson]

But then again, you guys would probably just stick in more classed NPCs if the page count was larger anyway... :\

One can only hope. I'd rather have those NPCs so I can spend more time working on the stuff that feels more creative to me. If there are people who feel crunching numbers for statblocks is a way to express themselves artistically, rock on - please post the statblocks you've made so others can share them.