MM4 Table of Contents up

[BryonD]

To what end? Leaving aside the fact that it's woefully unprofessional to go slagging a fellow writer's work in public, I risk offending people who I may very well be working with on my next gig. I love the ENWorld community, and I certainly hope that my opinions are valued here, but I'm not about to alienate my co-workers to provide the illusion of balance to a few posters who apparently already assume that my positive opinions have been bought.

Yes, the fact that I work for WotC influences what I'll say in public. I won't lie (though of course, you have only my word on that). I won't come out and say that a book is great if I don't think it is. I won't defend a book that I think is poorly designed.

But I won't come out and bash them, either. I'm sorry if it disturbs people to hear that, but that's simply the way it works in the real world. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

If I see a product that I feel is being unfairly slammed, I'll defend it. If I have a positive opinion about something, I'll express it. If I have a negative one, well... I'm happy to share those opinions with the writers, on a private forum, if asked. Going on about it here does nobody any good.

And I certainly wouldn't slam my employer or clients in public either.
Justifying that to me doesn't add new information.

The point is, if you get paid by them and only say gushing things, then the value of those comments will be, correctly, discounted. Having good reasons for it notwithstanding.

You not bashing stuff from them you does not disturb me, or anyone else that I know of. Me, nor anyone else, has said that it does.

But what I HAVE said is that knowing you are not going to bite the hand that feeds is going to strongly color the way your comments are taken. I'm sorry if it disturbs you to hear that, but that's simply the way it works in the real world.

I don't believe I did that. I've seen lots of critiques that have merit. There are even some in this thread. The specific ones I responded to are, IMO, not among them.

In the post I replied to you said:

I never said WotC can do no wrong. I tend not to bother wasting my time ranting about products--from WotC or anyone else--that I dislike. I have better things to do. For the record, I can think of several books out from WotC recently that I wasn't fond of. I can think of several design decisions I'm not happy with. But it does nobody any good for me to harp on those, does it?

Your own words, in the context of material you had reasonable basis for being unhappy with, the only word you use to describe posting about it was "ranting". Now if that is not the implication you intended, I understand. I certainly have said things that did not come across as intended on plenty of occasions. But I was replying to what you said.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

You completely took my post the wrong way.

I said the classed monsters should've been in a book titled Enemies&Allies II and the Monster Manual 4 should've stayed just that, a book of "monsters". Not mix the two in one book and market it as Monster Manual 4. It's half the book being nothing but classed "classical" monsters that most people are peeved about (that and the numerous amount of spawns of Tiamat, also)

Okay. Look in the 3.5 MM. Look at the ogre. There's a classed version right there. The precedent is set, the MM series includes classed versions of monsters. There are several more of those throughout the book. If they hadn't been included, there would have been room for at least 5 more monsters, maybe more.

But since many races are likely to have lots of classes examples, the MM IV gives them to you. Also, it presents some of the most popular creatures in the new monster format, which is popular with a lot of folks.

And... half the book?

Elf, drow = 5 pages at most
Githyanki = 4 pages "
Gnoll = 3 pages (including a lair) "
Lizardfolk = 7 pages "
Ogre = 5 pages "
Orc = 5 pages "
Yaun-ti = 4 pages "

That's 32 pages. Less than 15% of the page count! A far, far cry from half the book.

Even the Spawn of Tiamat only take up 36 pages, and that's for 14 monsters and a lair! together those elements are 68 pages, still less than half the book. Together, they're not quite a third of the book.

Now if you think you're going to hate and dislike those elements, you may not want to buy the book. Same deal for someone who doesn't like outsiders picking up the Fiend Folio. But this -isn't- a huge change in what we get when we bought previous MM-type books.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

If people don't know by now that D&D takes, I dunno, TIME then maybe they jumped into the wrong game.

Some can develop an adventure in an hour or 2, are books trying to help squeeze an extra 10 or 20 minutes of prep time now?

Your dedication is, in all seriousness, to be commended. Unfortunately, to make a living WotC has to sell books to people with less time and creativity than you.

There are DMs out there who need a lot more hand-holding than you do. Sample adventures and sample lairs are there not only so they have a ready-made scenario with no work, but to give them an -example- of how to use these elements. For a lot of poeple, that's a huge help.

Not me. Apparently not you. But those people have more money than us. They outnumber us, and WotC wants them to keep buying D&D books, even if those folks didn't realize what a time commitment crafting an interesting, well-designed campaign can be.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Most people responding to that specific thread said that, but that doesn't mean WotC doesn't have much more comprehensive figures to go by. That poll is by no means a good random sample.

Not to mention that not everyone is going to see Owen's presence in this thread as anything close to "negative".

 

[EricNoah]

It's not always about time before the game. Sometimes it's about time during the game. I just had a thread going about "secrets to winging it" -- if I want to run a more free-flowing game, then pre-statted characters are going to be pretty helpful to me. What I resent is the condescending, there's-only-one-right-way-to-play attitude from Razz and others. It's rude, and there's no getting around it.


If you don't like something, fine! Say it, sing it, do a tap dance! But to go around painting those who think it might be fun, or useful, or helpful, or interesting as stupid and lazy and in need of hand-holding is just wrong.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

Agreed completely.
But is it ok to be dissapointed that the book appears to be half and half?

It's okay to be dissappointed for any reason at all. Do keep in mind the classed monsters are less than 15% of the page count, however.

So, what do I do when half the book is for me and half is not for me?
Pay full price for half a book?

Tough call. But it can come up with any game-type book. What if you want rules for shadow magic, but hate everything else in Tome of Magic? What if you love Ninja, but hate everything else in Complete Adventurer? You're just going to have to decide if this book has enough utility for you. For some people, new classed ogres are a huge bonus. That's more useable stat blocks without having to introduce whole new ecologies or communities. They -have- ogres in their game, they're unlikely to add a "corrupture" just because it's in some monster book. For you, the balance seems to be different.

So your advice to me, as a contributor, is "Don't buy this book"?
No snark intended. That is what I'm hearing and I'd like to be clear.

No, my adviuce, as a gamer, is "Don't buy this book until you've got a good idea it's worth it to you." Flip through a copy if you can. Talk to friends that buy it. Check the actual word counts of various entries. Consider how many pages of dragons and dinosaurs from the MM you never used (or whatever critters you haven't used -- almost no one gets them all into one campaign.) See if anything does spark your interest. Look at your gaming budget, and then make a judgement call.

As a contributor, I have no special advice. I did my best. We all did. But we are not unique snowflakes. We don't game with you, buy you pizza, or tell stories about how your Paladin once one-shot a beholder with a critical hit while charging and smiting evil. We don't know what you need. Only you need that. We try to make as many people as happy as possible, with products that have the broadest appeal they can. Only you know if you're our target audiance.

Owen K.C. Stephens

 

[DMH]

Anyone know if there are going to be spawn of bahamat? It seems uneven to have only evil dragonspawn.

 

[DaveMage]

We don't game with you, buy you pizza...

And why don't you buy us pizza, anyway?



(Of course, even if you did, some would complain about the toppings you chose. )

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

Somebody should kindly point OStephens to the thread which showed that most people's buying habits are influenced by the designers' personal opinions. I don't think WotC would want the sort of negative marketing that he (she?) is currently providing.

It's "he." Owen K.C. Stephens. I didn't mean to be anonymous.

While you may well be right WotC would rather I shut my yap, they're a client, not my boss. They don't pay me enough to control my every hour or thought. That said, I seriously doubt anything I say here is going to create a noticeable blip in their sales.

You're all adults, or close enough. I'm going to treat you as adults, and give you the respect of not sugar-coating everything I have to say. Some of it is pro-WotC. Some isn't. Some is going to turn off people. Some is going to interest new people. I've been told people want to hear what professional game designers think, so here I am. And if I ever end up with the power to noticeably raise or lower any company's sales, I assure you I can make money off that too.

Owen K.C. Stephens

 

[Sammael]

Sorry for not being sure about your identity, Owen. Neither WotC product catalogue nor Amazon list you as an author (in fact, they only list Gwendolyn Kestrel), and I am not familiar with your previous work. Most designers who post on ENworld have full names listed in their sigs.

And I really like the attitude of WotC being your client. :thumbsup: