MM4 Table of Contents up

[atom crash]

I do wish they wouldn't put them in a "Monster Manual", though.

I do see the logic of this statement, and I can see how some people might feel that what is offered by the ToC just doesn't live up to the name "Monster Manual." The Monster Manual has traditionally been the name reserved for a book chock full of new monsters of all types. And WotC already has a series of books that looks more in-depth at a narrower range of creatures.

I definately don't have as much time to churn out statblocks as I used to, and if I can get a platoon of elite orcs for a random encounter without having to spend an hour or two plugging numbers, so much the better.

I couldn't agree more. I thought the most useful part of Heroes of Battle was the sample army units for the different racial types. I can see myself using those things again and again.

I'd love to see an entire book devoted to that concept. I'd like to see, for example, a book that focuses on different samples of Monstrous Humanoids: bugbears, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, minotaurs. Just tons of statblocks for each. I really don't need any new Monstrous Humanoids; I just need more examples of existing varieties that I can use. Give me more specific types of orcs and bugbears, goblins and hobgoblins. And lairs, treasures, ready-made encounters, right on!

I don't think of myself as lazy or uncreative. I'd do the work myself, but since my spare time is already stretched so thin, I'd rather have a source I can rip ready-made statblocks from, and focus my prep time on coming up with decent plots.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I couldn't agree more. I thought the most useful part of Heroes of Battle was the sample army units for the different racial types. I can see myself using those things again and again.

That's precisely why I loved Heroes of Battle. Those stat blocks of various humanoid soldier-types were invaluable. They can be re-used for any number of encounters. The same goes for the similar statblocks in the "Races" books. They're every handy for random encounters, for those who use those; the extensive outdoor encounters in Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth leap to mind.

I'd love to see an entire book devoted to that concept. I'd like to see, for example, a book that focuses on different samples of Monstrous Humanoids: bugbears, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, minotaurs. Just tons of statblocks for each. I really don't need any new Monstrous Humanoids; I just need more examples of existing varieties that I can use. Give me more specific types of orcs and bugbears, goblins and hobgoblins. And lairs, treasures, ready-made encounters, right on!

Yeah, that'd be very handy to have. As I said upthread somewhere, too often products that seem similar to this concept get bogged down in background text. Just the blocks, please; I'll provide the background myself - it's the type of prep work I'd rather do than crunch numbers.

I don't think of myself as lazy or uncreative. I'd do the work myself, but since my spare time is already stretched so thin, I'd rather have a source I can rip ready-made statblocks from, and focus my prep time on coming up with decent plots.

Exactly. I'm gettin' to be an old man. I'd rather spend my twilight years doing stuff I enjoy. Coming up with stats ain't my idea of fun after 26+ years of gaming.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I do wish they wouldn't put them in a "Monster Manual", though. The Flock of Foes approach seems wiser - clever combinations of templates and classes in a book of their own.

Yeah, I can get behind that. I can understand, to an extent, why people would object to such statblocks in a Monster Manual. An entire separate book devoted to them would be a good compromise.

 

[jester47]

Cool! Another book I do not feel compelled to buy!
Whoever is in product design over at WotC is making my hobby consolidation efforts much easier. Keep up the good work guys and soon I can treat WotC like I did TSR in the later days of 2e! Like they didn't exists, because well... they might as well not!

 

[jester47]

Actually this whole prestatted example version stuff got started in the Draconomicon. But there it was cool. Dragons typically don't have a built stat block. So it was necessary.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I agree with d20 dwarf that I like seeing WotC experiment with new formats, even if they don't always succeed. A monster manual that includes lairs and treasures seems, to me, like a good idea. Likewise with the expanded ogres, orcs, drow, etc. Would they be better placed in the original MM next to their base entries? You bet.

I think they'd be best alongside their MM entries too...maybe in 4e...[mischief] (it's too bad that mischief smiley isn't here). I think having sample - or maybe it'd be better to say "typical" - lairs helps a time-bereft DM, and also helps establish a type of "culture" for the critter that can be used by (and against) PCs - "wait; there's a stockade of pine-logs and a wooden tower in the middle? Must be a hobgoblin sentry post!"

 

[Mr.Black]

Could someone post the summon monster list that is on the table of contents? I can't download the TOC for some reason.

Thanks!

 

[EricNoah]

sure, I'll grab everything after the end of the monster list... hang on...

Sample Lair: The Deephollows . . . . . . . . . . 200
Monster Feats . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 202
Glossary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 204
Monsters by Type (and Subtype) . . . . . . . . . 220
Monsters Ranked by Challenge Rating . . 221
List of Monsters by ECL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 221

Full-Page Maps
Grand Tomb . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .23
Sample Wilderness Lair . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
Underground Lair and Shrine . . . . . . . . . . . . .89
Mithral Mines . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 113

Templates
Lolth-Touched . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .93
Web Mummy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165

For Player Characters:
Creatable Creatures
Bloodfire Ooze (ritual) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18
Bloodhulk (animate dead) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20
Clockroach (construct)* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28
Clockwork Mender (construct)* . . . . . . . . . . .30
Clockwork Pony (construct)* . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
Clockwork Stallion (construct)* . . . . . . . . . . .32
Defacer (create undead) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .38
Golem, Fang (construct)* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .72
Necrosis Carnex (animate dead) . . . . . . . . . . 104
Plague Walker (ritual) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120
*Requires the Craft Construct feat

Mounts/Companion Creatures
Clockwork Pony . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
Clockwork Stallion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .32
Lodestone Marauder . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90
Sailsnake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 124
Spawn, Bluespawn Stormlizard . . . . . . . . . . .142
Spawn, Greenspawn Leaper . . . . . . . . . . . . . 144
Spawn, Redspawn Firebelcher . . . . . . . . . . . 154

Power Components
Skiurid Nugget (necromancy spells) . . . . . 127

Summonable Creatures*
Clockwork Mender (II) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .30
Dwarf Ancestor (V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .52
Howler Wasp (II) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .74
Inferno Spider (VI) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76
Justice Archon (VII) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80
Windrazor (III) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .176
Windscythe (VI) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 177
Wrackspawn (IV) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 182
Yugoloth, Corruptor of Fate (VI) . . . . . . . . . 190
Yugoloth, Voor (IV) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 193
* Requires a summon monster spell of the indicated level (or higher)

Weapons
Dragonsplit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 151
Greathammer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101
Maquahuitl . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89

 

[d20Dwarf]

I'm hoping you're right. It sounds like you've seen it already, so that's good.

My lack of interest in the book comes not from perception of lack of content, but from perception that what content is there is low quality. You can read in my above message the specifics, but it's safe to say that the items I've listed in my lowest category are indicative, IMO, of banality.

I have seen the book, I got it last week and have spent a lot of time with it, more so than any D&D book I can think of in years. No doubt you're not going to care for or use 100% of the stuff in the book, but that's how it always is. There are some inventive monsters in the book, but what I really dig is how the monsters have a more classic feel...these are things you can use in a variety of ways, rather than a book full of spectral bladed prismatic demonoids that live on the 663rd layer of the Abyss and never come to the Material Plane. (Gee, thanks! ) In addition, the ecology/for the players/lore sections are what I wish all the monsters had from the beginning. They really get your imagination flowing, which is what a good monster should do...you immediately start placing these guys in adventure locales and growing plots around them.

I dunno, I sound like a booster, but color me excited that D&D is starting to put out some fresh content. It's so funny that recently the fresher the content I see the less the message board community seems to like it. I dunno what that says about me, maybe I've accumulated too many dark side points, but I'm so totally gellin' with the current WotC product design braintrust.

 

[BryonD]

I agree with d20 dwarf that I like seeing WotC experiment with new formats, even if they don't always succeed. A monster manual that includes lairs and treasures seems, to me, like a good idea. Likewise with the expanded ogres, orcs, drow, etc. Would they be better placed in the original MM next to their base entries? You bet.

That could be cool. Or not. It just depends.
But either way, it doesn't fit what, to me, is expected when you say "Monster Manual".

If this is just a bunch of standard fair with classes and templates tacked on, then that will be (another) real let down to me. Heck, no other publishers are making a serious run at my gaming budget, so I got that money burning a hole in my pocket and WotC keeps trying to find ways to talk me OUT of buying stuff.

BUT... I'm going to hold out optimism for a bit more.
If Lolth's Sting has something unique to it, then it can still be cool.
If it is nothing but a Drow Ninja 4 stepped right off the DDM card, well, that would seem a waste of paper.