Monk Musings... (not a good reply from WotC)

[shai-hulud]

No, you're reading this part right. It's an ability that gives the monk extra attacks at his highest Base Attack Bonus, and therefore it modifies the number of attacks granted to him by virtue of his Base Attack Bonus. The secondary attacks, granted by PMWF, aren't modified by the Flurry, because they're not *part* of the flurry.

While I understand your point, I don't read it that way. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting and Perfect Multiweapon Fighting could have been worded that they only grant attacks based on the number of attacks granted by the base attack bonus, but it is not. It is worded that it grants the same number of attacks as the primary weapon using the same Base Attack Bonus. A monk using flurry of blows has three attacks with his "primary weapon" at his highest base attack bonus. Translating this to off-hand attacks, I still read that he gains three attacks at his highest base attack bonus.

Klaus, what are your thoughts on this issue? Is it that you feel these rules are clear-cut, and I am misinterpreting them (in which case we should agree to disagree ). Or do you feel that this is a balance issue where the number of attacks per round should be limited (which is more what I am debating against)?

Also, there is the original question of how many of the thri-kreen's limbs qualify to make off-hand attacks? If the Thri-kreen headbutts and kicks for his flurry of blows, are all four of his limbs available to make off-hand attacks?

 

[Nail]

No, you're reading this part right. It's an ability that gives the monk extra attacks at his highest Base Attack Bonus, and therefore it modifies the number of attacks granted to him by virtue of his Base Attack Bonus. The secondary attacks, granted by PMWF, aren't modified by the Flurry, because they're not *part* of the flurry.

Sure, but read the description of the Perfect Multiweapon Fighting feat.

It says "You make as many attacks with each extra weapon as with your primary weapon..."

It doesn't matter where the extra primary attacks come from.

 

[Nail]

Also, there is the original question of how many of the thri-kreen's limbs qualify to make off-hand attacks? If the Thri-kreen headbutts and kicks for his flurry of blows, are all four of his limbs available to make off-hand attacks?

This is a red-herring. Don't get distracted!

A monk's attacks are defined. A Thri-kreen's attacks are defined. You don't have to worry about head-butts, kicks, etc.

 

[shai-hulud]

Here's the original question:


The quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. Two staves take up all four of the Thri-kreen's arms.

A monk can use a a quarterstaff as a special monk weapon, and "each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability."

So normally the attack progression would be (Mnk 20, Multiweaon Fighting feat, no Str, Magic, etc): +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 for one end (the "primary end") of one of the quarterstaves, then one extra attack with the each of the other three ends: +13/+13/+13.

With Perfect Multiweapon Fighting, the monk is allowed the same number of attacks with his secondary weapons as he has with his primary. So we have:

Primary Quarterstaff end: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Secondary Quarterstaff ends: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3

That looks like 20 attacks to me.

Lol, you answered right as I was posting . I understand what you wrote for only quarterstaff attacks, but what happens if the monk makes a flurry of headbutts and kicks, then decides that his off-hand attacks would be quarterstaff attacks?

Would it be:
Unarmed Strike (flurry of blows) - Primary Weapon:
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3

Quarterstaff (off-hand):
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3

Or, is his number of off-hand attacks always number of limbs minus one?

 

[Kerrick]

PMWF doesn't apply when using a flurry - or even at all, for monks. The description for Unarmed Strike specifically states: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." Therefore PMWF doesn't apply when using an unarmed attack, which is what Ritz is asking. (Yes, I know I'm reading it literally.)

Personally, I'd rule that it wouldn't apply for using two staves, either. Since you're using a flurry attack, you get a set number of attacks, which cover ALL limbs - hands, feet, whatever - and there are no "off-hands", so you can't apply PMWF here either.

 

[shai-hulud]

PMWF doesn't apply when using a flurry - or even at all, for monks. The description for Unarmed Strike specifically states: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." Therefore PMWF doesn't apply when using an unarmed attack, which is what Ritz is asking. (Yes, I know I'm reading it literally.)

Personally, I'd rule that it wouldn't apply for using two staves, either. Since you're using a flurry attack, you get a set number of attacks, which cover ALL limbs - hands, feet, whatever - and there are no "off-hands", so you can't apply PMWF here either.

While I understand your interpretation, the question seems to pop up on different forums about whether Monks can use Two-Weapon Fighting when making a flurry of blows. Wizards of the Coast added an entry to their FAQ covering this, although I understand that someone else who posted does not like the FAQ. According to the FAQ, a monk may make a flurry of blows and still make off-hand attacks. Perhaps it is offering too liberal of an interpretation?

 

[Nail]

... what happens if the monk makes a flurry of headbutts and kicks, then decides that his off-hand attacks would be quarterstaff attacks?

The thri-kreen can carry two quarterstaves.

His unarmed strike is his primary weapon. ("Off-hand" carries no meaning here. "Secondary attack" is the relevant bit.)

He may attack with his secondary attacks with his quarterstaves:

Secondary Quarterstaff ends: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3

 

[shai-hulud]

The thri-kreen can carry two quarterstaves.

His unarmed strike is his primary weapon. ("Off-hand" carries no meaning here. "Secondary attack" is the relevant bit.)

He may attack with his secondary attacks with his quarterstaves:

Secondary Quarterstaff ends: +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3, +13/+13/+13/+8/+3

Yes, WotC finally responded with the same thing.

On a similar note, I found this in the SRD:
This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon, attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks).

So the monk's entire Flurry of Blows would be his first entry, which is his "primary weapon", regardless of what weapons he is actually using. Then Perfect Multiweapon Fighting kicks in and gives him three sets of off-hand attacks with the same bonuses as his "primary weapon" attacks.

Thank you for your help Nail. I think this clears it up .

 

[Nail]

Sure!

Now...is it balanced? Just imagine this guy with access to Wraithstrike! Ouch.

 

[shai-hulud]

Sure!

Now...is it balanced? Just imagine this guy with access to Wraithstrike! Ouch.

Lol, who knows. He has been spending all of his feats on multiweapon fighting, he might not have a single effective attack in the entire mix .