Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Plane Sailing]

You have to be wielding two weapons (you unarmed strikes and your spear) to threaten all the areas. If you are wielding two weapons, you take TWF penalties (you are 'fighting this way').

Not everyone agrees with this interpretation, but IMO it's pretty clear.

Regardless of which way you swing on that particular issue (which we don't want to get into here!), you may have missed that they were talking about the Eberron feat which enables a monk to treat a longspear as one of his monk special weapons - and hence it can be used as per normal in a flurry without any TWF penalties - Just like Kama, Quarterstaff etc.

Cheers

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Good question. *heads off to check SRD* Ah, here we go. Weapon, singular.
Actually, for the most part there are only two systems. Unarmed strikes are manufactured weapons in almost all ways.


glass.

A monk's unarmed strike - singular - how many strikes does a monk get? Up to 11? Each strike (hand, foot, elbow, knee, forehead, etc) could be treated as a manufactured weapon. Furthermore, there's more weirdness if you cast greater magic fang on the monk, which normally can't be cast on manufactured weapons

I still think it's unclear. I don't think the monk should be sucking up a mage's or cleric's spell slots for greater magic weapon in any event. They should be able to pull their own weight.

It's harder for a monk to get enhanced as a natural weapon because they can't walk into a store and plunk doewn 18,000 gp and get an upgrade. They have to sit there for eighteen days (or more likely three times as long, if you're following the silly amulet of mighty fists pricing scheme) to get enhanced.

Maybe you can swallow special sake to get a permanent bonus - it's going to be very expensive sake, and you'll have to make "sake upgrades" available so you don't get screwed every time you want to increase your bonus by +1. And even then, you're stuck with a lame BAB but ridiculous damage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Regardless of which way you swing on that particular issue (which we don't want to get into here!), you may have missed that they were talking about the Eberron feat which enables a monk to treat a longspear as one of his monk special weapons - and hence it can be used as per normal in a flurry without any TWF penalties - Just like Kama, Quarterstaff etc.

In a similar vein, don't forget Pole Fighter from DCv1, which allows the same with any polearm that the Monk takes Weapon Focus, and Unorthodox Flurry, which does the same for any light weapon.

 

[jcfiala]

Maybe you can swallow special sake to get a permanent bonus - it's going to be very expensive sake, and you'll have to make "sake upgrades" available so you don't get screwed every time you want to increase your bonus by +1. And even then, you're stuck with a lame BAB but ridiculous damage.

When the figher is using a Flaming Greatsword for 2d6+1d6+powerattack, why is a monk's 2d6 or 2d8 rediculous?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

When the figher is using a Flaming Greatsword for 2d6+1d6+powerattack, why is a monk's 2d6 or 2d8 rediculous?

Because a monk's strike is a one-handed weapon, and (if their damage didn't skyrocket to 2d10 and overpriced gear wasn't an issue) they could have gotten balanced flaming amulets, too. If the monk got to do 1d6 or 1d8 damage per hit, with each having a reasonable enhancement bonus and having the possibility of inflicting +1d6 ice damage or something like that, it would probably work out well.

 

[jcfiala]

Because a monk's strike is a one-handed weapon, and (if their damage didn't skyrocket to 2d10 and overpriced gear wasn't an issue) they could have gotten balanced flaming amulets, too. If the monk got to do 1d6 or 1d8 damage per hit, with each having a reasonable enhancement bonus and having the possibility of inflicting +1d6 ice damage or something like that, it would probably work out well.

What does it matter if the Monk's strike is a one-handed weapon? It's not like he's holding onto a shield with the free hand. Part of the balance in doing more damage with a two-handed weapon is that you don't get to use your shield. Part of the balance in Monks doing so much damage is that they can't enchance their blows or use a shield.

Heck, call it a flaming longsword - 1d8+1d6+powerattack. Again, how is this so much better than a monk doing 2d8 damage with his unflaming fists?

(Or am I wrong, and there is a magic item that gives monks flaming hands - I don't remember there being one...)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What does it matter if the Monk's strike is a one-handed weapon? It's not like he's holding onto a shield with the free hand.

Nothing to do with balance. Everything to do with flavor. Get the flavor right first, then tackle the balance. A monk's fist doing 2d10 points of damage is ridiculous. It also makes it harder to apply reasonably priced enhancement bonuses to their unarmed strikes. 2d10 is a high number, so there's reluctance to make 2d10+5 available.

Part of the balance in doing more damage with a two-handed weapon is that you don't get to use your shield. Part of the balance in Monks doing so much damage is that they can't enchance their blows or use a shield.

They should have had the ability to enhance their blows. Furthermore, their abilities work like an improved TWF. I don't think a dual-wielding fighter should be able to wield dual greataxes for 1d12 damage each, and they have a really hard time using shields, except those stupid broken floating shields.

Heck, call it a flaming longsword - 1d8+1d6+powerattack. Again, how is this so much better than a monk doing 2d8 damage with his unflaming fists?

No no on. The monk should be doing base 1d8 (or so) damage with the option of an enhanced (at reasonable price) flaming fist, just like the fighter does 1d8 (or so) damage and can get the weapon enhanced (and flaming) at a reasonable price. That'll give the monk some attack bonus (from the enhancement bonus) he or she sorely needs and fill in the damage gap with rangers and other fighting classes.

(Or am I wrong, and there is a magic item that gives monks flaming hands - I don't remember there being one...)

There was one in 3.0. Bracers of Striking. It was in an FR book, and because of it's positioning, wasn't very flavorful. (How do you explain a flaming headbutt when your power is coming from something over your arms and wrists?) It cost the same as a double weapon - WotC did get that right. I think DMs were scared of it, though, since it could give you monks doing 2d10 + 1d6 damage (even if they never hit to make that damage worthwhile).

 

[glass]

Regardless of which way you swing on that particular issue (which we don't want to get into here!), you may have missed that they were talking about the Eberron feat which enables a monk to treat a longspear as one of his monk special weapons - and hence it can be used as per normal in a flurry without any TWF penalties - Just like Kama, Quarterstaff etc.

I know that. I never said he couldn't use both in a flurry, but he can't flurry when making AoOs. I don't want to get into a big debate about it either, but if someone makes an assertion that I consider to be inacurate, I'm duty-bound to at least note that there are other opinions.


glass.

 

[glass]

A monk's unarmed strike - singular - how many strikes does a monk get? Up to 11? Each strike (hand, foot, elbow, knee, forehead, etc) could be treated as a manufactured weapon. Furthermore, there's more weirdness if you cast greater magic fang on the monk, which normally can't be cast on manufactured weapons

The monk has an unarmed strike (her weapon), with which he makes unarmed attacks (her attacks). Unfortunately, the latter are also known as unarmed strikes on occasion, which I admit is a little confusing.

However, it seems pretty clear to me that when they are talking about the monks unarmed strike being treated as X types of weapon, they are talking about the former use (the weapon), rather than the latter use (the attacks themselves): Otherwise, each MW/MF spell would only be good for one attack!


glass.

 

[jcfiala]

Nothing to do with balance. Everything to do with flavor. Get the flavor right first, then tackle the balance. A monk's fist doing 2d10 points of damage is ridiculous. It also makes it harder to apply reasonably priced enhancement bonuses to their unarmed strikes. 2d10 is a high number, so there's reluctance to make 2d10+5 available.

Oh, alright. If we're rewriting the rules so that a monk can gain reasonably priced enhancements to their unarmed attacks, including many of the same extra-damage enhancements that other attackers can get, then I agree that a monk's damage should be drasticly reduced.

I'm just saying that looking at the Rules As Written, the Monk's high damage potential makes sense. And a 2d8-2d10 range of hand to hand damage in a 15th-20th level monk doesn't squick my suspension of disbelief in a game where 20th level wizards are casting Wish, Fighters are hitting with a +35-+40 attack, and Rogues get to add 10d6 to their sneak attacks.

They should have had the ability to enhance their blows. Furthermore, their abilities work like an improved TWF. I don't think a dual-wielding fighter should be able to wield dual greataxes for 1d12 damage each, and they have a really hard time using shields, except those stupid broken floating shields.

How is it an 'improved TWF' when their chance of hitting is lower than that of a similarly tricked out Ranger with the TWF path? Someone went over the numbers upthread, and it was pretty obvious the Monk's flurry had lower chances of hitting than the Ranger with TWF.

There was one in 3.0. Bracers of Striking. It was in an FR book, and because of it's positioning, wasn't very flavorful. (How do you explain a flaming headbutt when your power is coming from something over your arms and wrists?) It cost the same as a double weapon - WotC did get that right. I think DMs were scared of it, though, since it could give you monks doing 2d10 + 1d6 damage (even if they never hit to make that damage worthwhile).

Actually, I think that was 1d20 + 1d6 damage, in 3.0. I seem to remember the 3.0 monk going up along the single dice, although I don't have a PHB on hand to check, and it's almost impossible to find the 3.0 SRD these days.