Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Plane Sailing]

Abundant Step is basically Dimension Door 1/day. Useful for really fast movement... but then by this level you're already moving 70' as a move action, or 280' as a run. So it's useful, but it's not that useful, and could easily be dispensed of.

I think you are underestimating the benefits of Abundant Step - the ability to bypass obstacles such as wall of force (or force cage) and to disappear from the grapple grip of a colossal dragon or giant isn't to be sniffed at.

The key thing is that it gives an additional form of mobility which allows you to bypass obstacles which would otherwise be impassable.

cheers

 

[jcfiala]

I think you are underestimating the benefits of Abundant Step - the ability to bypass obstacles such as wall of force (or force cage) and to disappear from the grapple grip of a colossal dragon or giant isn't to be sniffed at.

The key thing is that it gives an additional form of mobility which allows you to bypass obstacles which would otherwise be impassable.

Hmm. Re-reading Dimension Door, I think you've got a good point there. Since it's a Supernatural ability, you can use it when grappled, and it does let you bypass a lot of interesting effects. I'm puzzled what it's doing for the Monk class, but it's useful, especially because it looks like you can bring along another 2-3 people, depending on level.

Thanks.

 

[Stalker0]

I think Jcfiala did a good job on the monk abilities, I'll just highlight them a little more. I think the key thing about monk abilities is...how well do they help the monk do his job?

1) Speed and mobility. There's nothing bad about moving faster. I did a poll a while back and most people agree that in general while moving fast is good, in general its not that great. Moving slower is much more of a detriment than moving fast is a bonus. The other thing is that his enhanced speed clashes with some of his other monk abilities. Flurry of blows doesn't work if you have to move. Monks have lower hitpoints than fighters (d8 hitdice) and often have weaker ACs. That means you might be the first one into combat, but do you really want to be there?

2) Evasion and Improved Evasion. Great abilities for the monk, and underappreciated I think. These combine with the monks great reflex save to allow him to completely avoid fireballs. Let's keep in mind that the monk is one of only 2 classes that can do this.

3) Still Mind. Any +2 is nice, but this doesn't really help the monk fight.

4) Slow Fall. This one just isn't that great, especially considering a ring of feather fall is dirt cheap and much better.

5) Purity of Body. Immunity to diseases isn't that great of a benefit in general. By the time you get it, any disease you pick up can be healed with remove disease. The only really nasty diseases that actually matter for combat purposes your not immune to.

6) Ki Strike (Magic). This is compensation for not having magic fists, and normally comes 2 levels after the rest of your party has magic weapons. Ki Strike (lawful) is pretty weak in general. Ki Strike (adamantine) is very nice for penetrating DR, and its a lot of fun to be able to tear down walls with your bare hands.

7) Wholeness of Body. Never underestimate the ability to heal yourself, especially in combat. I had a characters whose personal healing saved his life. This one helps the monk fight better and last longer, its a good ability.

8) Awesome Touch AC. This isn't a class ability but can't be ignored. Your touch AC is often the best in the party, and that gets better and better as you get higher in levels. There are a lot of touch attacks out there.

9) Diamond Body. Never underestimate the benefits of an immunity. There are CR 10 creatures out there with DC 23 poisons, so don't think you can just walz past poisons. Monks will get hit with poisons a lot when they fight in melee, so this is a great ability for them. The other power of this is that this is an "active immunity." Just like the old gain fire immunity and light yourself on fire, the monk can actually deliver poisons with his hands with no worry of it bothering him.

10) Quivering Palm. This is a fun ability and a nice plot ability, but not really a strong combat ability.

11) Abundant Step and Empty Body. These again are not to be underestimated. The big thing is you can get places other party members can't, and you can escape things they can't. If you ever been forcecaged before or grappled by a garguantuan creature...you know the benefit of being able to d door out. These are great abilities.

12) SR...you can never scoff over SR.

13) Perfect Self: In 3.5, DR 10/magic is still very good. There are lots of monsters that don't penetrate magic DR. This hleps the front line monk.

14) Ranged attack weakness. I thought I'd mention this one. The only ranged weapon of worth a monk gets is the crossbow. So that means anytime a ranged fight comes up, the monk is reduced to a single attack at a medium BAB. Fighters are often not the best archers, but hey they can pull out a bow and throw out 3 or 4 attacks, so they're doing alright. Monks are really, really, really bad at ranged combat.

So looking at the list you notice, monks are really good against spellcasters and against weird situations. That's a niche, and a good one. But in a straight up fight going into melee against the big bad (ie the typical dnd fight) there abilities help them very little.

 

[jcfiala]

9) Diamond Body. Never underestimate the benefits of an immunity. There are CR 10 creatures out there with DC 23 poisons, so don't think you can just walz past poisons. Monks will get hit with poisons a lot when they fight in melee, so this is a great ability for them. The other power of this is that this is an "active immunity." Just like the old gain fire immunity and light yourself on fire, the monk can actually deliver poisons with his hands with no worry of it bothering him.

I never thought of trying that, but you're right - just dip your hands in a contact poison and hit someone.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to put it in pesspective, lets look at the paladin abilities and see hwo they help him do his thing.

1) Detect Evil. Find the enemy, kill the enemy. Doesn't help in combat, but at will abilities are always good.

2) Smite Evil. Gives the paladin better hit and tons more damage against evil creatures. Once the paladin gets a few of these under his belt (through levels or feats) he can rack up a lot of damage agaisnt evil.

3) Divine Grace. This one really depends on the paladin. It can make the paladin's saves better than a monks, comparable, or not really much of a help at all depending on the paladin's cha.

4) Lay on Hands. Healing is always always good. For a front line fighter, being able to heal yourself is great.

5) Aura of Courage. We all know fighters have crappy will saves. This helps compensates partly for the fighters innate weakness. Paladins can stand against scary stuff and not worry about their will saves hindering them. Combined with their divine grace, they handle will saves pretty well..

6) Divine Health. Immunity to most diseases doesn't help in combat that often, although diseases could be a problem for the party at low levels when you first get it. However, immunity to magical diseases is nice. Trust me, you don't want mummy rot.

7) The mount. Some hate the mount, every paladin I've seen played loves the mount. The mount is a whole additional combat power. It can attack, it increases your mobiility, it can have a decent AC with mounted combat. I've seen paladin mounts be a major force in combat.

8) Remove Disease....alright, this one just blows

9) Turn Undead. Not that strong for a paladin, helps turn the crappy undead, allowing the paladin to focus on the big wigs. Can also be used to power divine feats, which are very powerful in general.

10) Spells. Let's take a brief look at some of the paladin spells. 1st of, paladins can heal more with their spells AND can use healing wands (very important). They get bless weapon, autocriting against evil is nice. Protection from evil is never bad, especially at low levels. Divine Favor can become very nice at high levels, not really great when the paladin first gets it. Bless can be a nice party buff if your facing something really nasty. At 2nd level, resist energy can be a big blessing. I don't think the paladin's 3rd level spells help that much in general, but his 4th level dispel evil, holy sword, and DEATH WARD!! are great spells to have.

So if you compare this list to the monks, you can see that the paladin's ability are very focused towards protecting the paladin and helping him kill evil. Thing is, in most campaigns the party is fighting evil all the time, so these abilities get used a lot.

The monks abilities are scattered more, and don't have the same focus. Also, its main focus, anti-spellcaster, is a lot rarer than anti-evil.

 

[No Name]

I like the monk flavor. It's right up there with double dark chocolate. If my fantasy world doesn't have culture-specific areas in large cities (ie. a "Chinatown"), then people have traveled far enough to see (and bring back) wonders of the world - like martial arts. Maybe it's just my limited creativity, but I have trouble imagining a world where wizards and the like travel to different planes, yet other countries on the same continent are a mystery.

If someone wants to play a ninja, they can play a ninja. You just might not meet too many of your ninja brothers and sisters.

I do think that monks need full BAB, even if something else has to be given up.

 

[Plane Sailing]

7) Wholeness of Body. Never underestimate the ability to heal yourself, especially in combat. I had a characters whose personal healing saved his life. This one helps the monk fight better and last longer, its a good ability.

I can't help thinking that this one would have been better if it had a better match with the paladin power - e.g. heal (level x Wis bonus) hit points per day.

Regarding poison immunity. My druid got badly bitten by a phase spider. Grrrr. However, at the end of the encounter he went up a level and got his poison immunity. Two encounters later we came up against yet more phase spiders being used by the BBEG and I can tell you that the poison immunity was abso-bloomin-fantastic.

The monks probably ought to have supernatural disease immunity just like the paladins to make their disease immunity worth having, to be honest.

Cheers

 

[glass]

I didn't say anything about house rules. The rules are not clear about this. They say you can enhance your natural weapons as manufactured weapons, without clear numbers being stated anywhere.

I says nothing of the sort. Its says that a monks unarmed strikes can be enhanced as though they were natural weapons and manufactured weapons. It has absolutely no bearing on any natural weapons the monk may also have.


glass.

 

[glass]

There's also Serpent Strike, a feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting (prereqs: Simple Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus [longspear]) that turns the longspear into a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it (and with your unarmed strikes). Threatened area of 20 squares, iirc!

Although, people have already mentioned monks have a hard time hitting, so those TWF penalties are really gonna hurt.


glass.

 

[Klaus]

Although, people have already mentioned monks have a hard time hitting, so those TWF penalties are really gonna hurt.


glass.

What TWF penalties? Being a monk special weapon, you can use it interchangeably with your unarmed strikes in a flurry, at no penalty. You threaten adjacent squares with your unarmed strikes, and 10'-away squares with the longspear.