Monster Optimization

[SlyFlourish]

So my players very much enjoy optimizing their characters, not to an obscene level but they love getting the most from their gear and from eachother with some pretty powerful character combinations.

The problem is, as a DM, I want to have that same amount of fun. In particular, while I wouldn't go out of my way to wipe out the party, I'd like to know that I COULD if I WANTED to. Right now, at level 18, I don't feel like that. I put them through one of the roughest battles I could imagine: Bodak Death Knights + Slaughter Wights + Demonic Flameskulls. That worked pretty well but they still managed to defeat it without much lost other than a great pile of healing surges.

So if players get their character optimization boards, how can we start a monster optimization board with combinations of monsters that are particularly effective.

I'll even start with one: Bodaks and wights. Bodaks get a gaze attack that drops PCs to 0 hitpoints but only when they're weakened. Wights weaken on their basic melee attacks. Have the Bodak ready an action to gaze at the first weakened opponent and you have a 1-2 punch that will knock a defender on his arse. It's a cheap shot but it gets their attention.

What other non-griefy non-grindy monster combinations have you found that can be truely dangerous to powerful optimized PCs?

 

[Rechan]

Anything that causes Daze + Anything that has a Combat Advantage power. The prime example is a Mad Wraith + other Wraiths. (Be wary; this is a very brutal encounter, given all the insubstantial/regeneration business).

Chillborn Zombies, Ettercap Fang Guards, and Ghouls all get boosts in damage against immobilized targets. Any monster that can immobilize at range or multiple targets (like a Deathlock Wight, or better yet, a Harpy) are good among friends.

Dreaming of Death: Certain monsters do utterly terrible things to targets who are unconscious. Put these monsters in a group together. Oni Night Hunter, Night Hags, Chasme, and Assassin Imps (Dragon) can all put targets to sleep, and then do bad things to them.

 

[Asmor]

Well, first thing to keep in mind is that you're the DM. If you want the characters to die, they will die. That's not necessarily a good thing, but that's how it is. If you really wanted, you could throw Orcus at a party of level 1s or drop a moon on them (it worked for Chewbacca!).

So killing players isn't a challenge. The challenge is finding something which is just a hair's breadth to either side of lethality, in which it's only luck and tactics which tip it one way or the other.

That said, look for good combinations of monsters. For example, the Mind Flayer Infiltrator is invisible to dazed targets, and umber hulks have an at-will, minor action, close blast 5 attack which dazes people. Very nasty combo.

 

[Jack7]

Please forgive the initial following comments. I happen to be in a very good and silly mood. Which sometimes leads to me breaking into Marxism's.

not to an obscene level

That's good because obscenities are probably not the best way to pursue optimal character development. In most cases. Unless maybe you're French-Canadian. Or work for the Navy.

but they love getting the most from their gear and from eachother with some pretty powerful character combinations.

I'll bet. But is it legal where you guys live, that's the question...?


Otherwise, and to be more serious for a moment, I optimize my monsters by changing them around. So that they are different, and can do different things than the players might expect (different than the Monster Manual). Surprise, as I have learned over time, is always the best way to take someone unawares. Or as a buddy of mine used to put it, "The unpredictable leaves you at the distinct disadvantage of not really knowing what to expect next."

 

[darjr]

Some great advice I'll add...

Multiple creatures that have damaging zones that stack.

Several chill born zombies for instance. Mix up the type of zones. Maybe a couple of chill born zombies and ah... a couple poison stink zombies and a couple rot grub infested zombies. Each with zone damage that stack.

Steal healing surges. My players HATE that.

Monsters that take advantage of combat advantage at a distance.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I feel that optimizing monsters often involves optimizing terrain also. Yes, some monsters (like wraiths and their surge-stealing or Wraiths and regen/insubstantial) are always annoying but with the right terrain they can be so much more. If a monster can push, it is annoying, but not much so on a wide open floor. Give then a serious fall to worry about and it is a lot worse.

But I have to say that though the DM can usually kill the party if they want, it is far far harder to do it in 4E without being blatantly egrarious than other editions. I've thrown things at the party I was sure would kill them, but they walked through it. Player characters are incredibly tough in 4E, amazingly tough.

 

[darjr]

Terrain, yes.

Another thing you can do is break their stride.

I run games for these kids that are literally card carrying super geniuses. I'm not kidding, they play munchkin itself as if they are going to lose fingers if they don't win.

I ran a combat where I told them the monsters fought as if they were in a dance, a ritual dance, as if they were summoning something and the combat itself was part of it. Then I had the monsters start by whispering something they couldn't hear, in unison, and every round they would get louder until they were SCREAMING the name SHAR with all their might.

Those kids went into a panic. The machine that is their combat crashed and burned. They were all standing up and running about as if their hair were on fire.

I ran the RPGA adventure 'The Radiant Vessel of Thesk' and in it

Spoiler

there is an encounter that is two skill challenges and combat. In it they need to save a woman giving birth, convince one of the bad guys that he should turn on his boss, and defeat the rest of the bad guys. The folks I ran started all combat but quickly broke into making bad combat decisions in order to save the woman and turn the bad guy.

 

[Derulbaskul]

(snip)So killing players isn't a challenge. (snip)

I beg to differ. Killing players is a rather large challenge!

Besides some of the combinations already mentioned, movement can be the key to a tougher encounter. Being able to shift at-will or with regular recharges can provide a large advantage without necessarily ramping up the overt danger of the encounter. Teleport is also very cool.

Perhaps, too, building lurkers to really be lurkers might pose a greater challenge. I statted up the 3E FF's ahuizotl recently (aquatic beast- basically a big with a claw at the end of its tail). Being able to shift back into the water with a captive etc... made that a significant threat, especially once that captive starts to drown! Not over-the-top, but one that makes PCs look carefully at rivers in future.

 

[Jack99]

Even without magical items, 4e characters are brutal.

I am running my 18th level party through a 4e version of ToH as part of the campaign.

Last night, they ran into the teleport trap which drops off all their items in Acerak' lair. Despite being virtually naked, they decided to proceed. Later on, armed only with a rusty longsword, a silver dagger and nothing else, they still managed to beat a pretty hard encounter. Sure, they were lucky to survive the encounter, but still. I had not expected it.

Was awesome. Heroes should be heroes due to what they can do, not due to the magical items they have.

 

[Henrix]

Anything that causes Daze + Anything that has a Combat Advantage power. The prime example is a Mad Wraith + other Wraiths. (Be wary; this is a very brutal encounter, given all the insubstantial/regeneration business).

We had one of those yesterday (when I for once did not DM) - it was brutal, but also tremendously slow; Insubstantial, weakness, regeneration and dazed from the Mad Wraith's aura means that we did almost no damage.

Had we had more radiant attacks things might have been easier, but only the cleric had any (and he kept rolling low).

So a bit of a warning there - that sort of battle may be a bit of a grind. A dangerous grind.