Monte's 4thed (?)

[Celebrim]

So my 5th level cleric can cast Cure Light Wounds (in a party of 5 characters), 50 times per day?

In other words, I can run through the equivalent of an entire Wand of CLW each day of adventuring, or as an alternative way of looking at it each 5th level character effectively has an additional 95 hit points.

I think I'd just be happier saying, 'Ok, 5th level heroic characters get a bonus 95 hit points. Have fun storming the castle.'

 

[Scribble]

1. Monte Knew about 4e and possibly even helped write it a bit... This is a "secret" playtest.

What better way to explain why suddenly a prosperous company like malhovac was suddenly dark then to say he decided to shift focus into writing fiction? But, why make it all secret? Why not just say I'm playtesting 4e?

2. Monte is upset at the current tactic of bashing 3e and saying 4e will fix everything this faulty game did wrong... His version...

He's attempting to show how "his" version isn't as horrible as it's being painted, and with just a few tweaks can pretty much be the new game. But he's never struck me as the type to take things too personally before...

3. The currently crew, some of them his friends, asked him to sort of hype up the changes... Show how it works well without literally saying he's playing 4e... If it's good enough for Monte, it's good enough for anyone right?

But that seems somewhat shadowy conspiracy...

4. He's flexing his creative muscles...

Once a game designer, always a game designer right? Also everyone houserules... he's just more in the public spotlight. Plus he knows the system and knows how to mess with it.

In truth, I think it was some combination of the above.

Maybe he knew roughly when 4e was coming. He timed his "opus" to make it out onto the shelves with enough time to do well in sales, and then jumped out of the game so as not to waste time money on products that might not sell (once 4e was announced) and moved into his writing game...

Now he's having fun playing with rules that are somewhat similar to whats being said about 4e (or what WAS said about 3e long ago.) and seeing what they'll do...

 

[Atlatl Jones]

Monte is a good creative designer but not good at math, thats why most of the math was changed from 3.0 (where he did most of the heavy lifting) to 3.5. Personally I am glad he is not involved with 4e.

First of all, almost all of the math is identical in 3.0 and 3.5. Second, by all accounts Johnathan Tweet was the math guy in the 3rd edition design team.

I do find it interesting that Monte's ideas for improving 3e look a lot like what the 4e designers have done. There seems to be a broad general consensus of where 3e gameplay is lacking.

 

[Atlatl Jones]

So my 5th level cleric can cast Cure Light Wounds (in a party of 5 characters), 50 times per day?

In other words, I can run through the equivalent of an entire Wand of CLW each day of adventuring, or as an alternative way of looking at it each 5th level character effectively has an additional 95 hit points.

I think I'd just be happier saying, 'Ok, 5th level heroic characters get a bonus 95 hit points. Have fun storming the castle.'

It's very different from having 95 extra bonus hit points, because you don't have those hit points automatically in the middle of an encounter. With 95 hit points you're the energizer bunny, able to go go go and blow through any encounter. With a virtual wand of CLW, you can heal up between encounters, but your in-encounter HPs are the same as they would be in standard D&D, unless the cleric spends an action to heal you.

 

[catsclaw227]

I've always been a fan of Malhavoc, Ptolus and his ideas of the way rules work in Arcana Evolved.

I'll join the chorus that it's interesting that his homebrew rules are similar to what is being changed in 4e. Eerily similar.

 

[Celebrim]

It's very different from having 95 extra bonus hit points, because you don't have those hit points automatically in the middle of an encounter.

There are differences and I'm aware of what they are, but its not that different. The main difference is when the enemies expected damage per round is much higher than 1d8+Level, and especially at higher than 1d8+Level/player character. At this point, attrition matters and the spending of actions to heal amounts to something because you can't keep up with the damage. But frankly, alot of the time it really doesn't matter because the encounter will be over before it matters, or the damage isn't coming all that fast and the need to heal just barely slows the encounter if it all. Maybe at high levels when you are really being ganked, it matters, but mostly this reads, 'At the end of the first X encounters of the day, everyone heals all damage.'

With a virtual wand of CLW, you can heal up between encounters, but your in-encounter HPs are the same as they would be in standard D&D, unless the cleric spends an action to heal you.

It doesn't even have to be the cleric anymore, because anyone can touch the cleric to be healed.

What bothers me about this is that it goes from being dubious to not have a cleric in the party, to being absolutely insane. For most encounters you'd go against, having the cleric in the party is a 95 hit point spell battery (at 5th level) for every member of the party - not counting spells.

I just don't see this as an 'improvement' that is worth the trouble. If you want to increase player character power, do it more directly and be done with it.

 

[Dave Turner]

Isnt Mike Mearls, Monte Cooks homeboy? Because that sounded alot like the little tid-bits they have been throwing out. JMHO!

I wouldn't describe them as homeboys. As I understand it, Monte deserves none of the credit for the substance of Iron Heroes. As I see it, D&D 4E's full title should be:

"Dungeons and Dragons, Fourth Edition: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Iron Heroes."

To the extent that my title is accurate, the influence is entirely from Mearls. Monte has nothing to do with it.

Are the two sets of rules a case of parallel development, as some have suggested? Perhaps, but I reserve the same general skepticism for that claim that I have for any such claim. It's no secret that Monte is very friendly with the 4E developers, since a healthy percentage of them played in his home game. It's possible that ideas for 4E development developed from off-hours conversations between Monte and his friends. If that's the case, though, then I don't understand the tone of his blog entries, which strongly suggest that the ideas are wholly his.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wouldn't describe them as homeboys. As I understand it, Monte deserves none of the credit for the substance of Iron Heroes. As I see it, D&D 4E's full title should be:

"Dungeons and Dragons, Fourth Edition: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love Iron Heroes."

To the extent that my title is accurate, the influence is entirely from Mearls. Monte has nothing to do with it.

Are the two sets of rules a case of parallel development, as some have suggested? Perhaps, but I reserve the same general skepticism for that claim that I have for any such claim. It's no secret that Monte is very friendly with the 4E developers, since a healthy percentage of them played in his home game. It's possible that ideas for 4E development developed from off-hours conversations between Monte and his friends. If that's the case, though, then I don't understand the tone of his blog entries, which strongly suggest that the ideas are wholly his.

I suspect that the implementation (his house rules) is wholly his (except for the typical "inspired by other game systems / random forum posts").
The observations on D&D and its flaws were flying through the "Collective D&D Designer Mind" all the time. But he might be one of the first designers to publically describe them. (I am not sure, I didn't read any other blogs from designers). (And he even said himself that some ideas had been floating around during the inception of 3rd edition, too - like the #spell levels = # character levels idea)

 

[WhatGravitas]

But he might be one of the first designers to publically describe them. (I am not sure, I didn't read any other blogs from designers).

Well, this is very possible. Monte is out of the RPG-industry, so he can use his designer-muscles for his homebrew and blog about it as long as he wants - he doesn't have to worry about holding ideas for books back.

And 4E is in development since 2005, so the good developers at WotC cannot blog such tidbits - only sneak them into books (Bo9S, Reserve feats, SAGA).

And for mearls: There were several books that were written by mearls and Monte together (Book of Hallowed Might 2, Legacy of the Dragons), and mearls got to play in Monte's sandbox (i.e. AE - with Mystic Secrets, Transcendence and Ruins of Intrigue) - I think mearls has picked up some Monte'isms from there - even if pure subconsciously (because a good idea is a good idea - and if you're working with such stuff, you'll learn to love the good ideas within).

I don't accuse mearls of plagiarism or copying Monte - but I believe that some of Monte's ideas were shared with mearls. And that's showing a certain influence here.

Cheers, LT.

 

[SPECTRE666]

One can only hope that Monte is still influencing WotC via Mike.