More on martial arts in d20 Modern

[Mistwell]

This is one of those cases where I feel the "color" added by WOTC did more harm than good.

Brawl should have been called Advanced Unarmed Nonlethal Attacks. Combat Martial Arts should have been called Advanced Unarmed Lethal Attacks. It would have been so much easier for people to understand what they meant if they had gone that route.

 

[Vigilance]

I wouldn't consider myself a fast hero worshipper. I simply reduced the BAB requirement to +2 for the Martial Arts Master because that opens the class up to a whole RANGE of classes, NOT just Fast Hero. The Dedicated hero can now qualify for the class as well, and there is still a place for the Strong and Tough Heroes. I tried to open the class up to all the classes, and the sample martial artists in the book come from just about every basic class.

The Martial Arts Master and the Contemplative Master are intended as alternate takes on the Martial Artist. If you don't use EITHER advanced class, you will still be able to use the 130+ feats provided in the book.

As for being a fanboy, you betcha

I am a bonafide Daredevil fanboy, a XMen fanboy, especially the Ultimate universe lol.

Wannabe? I wannabe Mr. Kim Smith I'll admit to that.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but I hope that this isn't an overpowered fanboy wannabe deal. I hope that this doesn't result in there being no reason to take the Strong Hero class. I hope that a Fast3/Martial Arts Master10 isn't more powerful than a Strong3/MA10.

Because, really, there's nothing quite as annoying as a Fast-Hero worshipper who a) complains about how hard it is for him to get into the Martial Artist class and then b) makes his own class, which is completely overpowered and does everything that the Martial Artist class did, only more effectively, plus you can wear a killer black trenchcoat while doing it.

 

[Vigilance]

The Martial Artist class can be used instead of, or in addition to, the Martial Arts Master and the Contemplative Master. The Martial Artist will get advantages those classes don't, but won't get the Mastery abilities provided by the classes presented in Blood and Fists.

The way I handled the streetfighter was to make a martial arts style for him, called the School of Hard Knocks, which requires the Brawling feat as it's prerequisite. He then can use his Style feat as a prerequisite for maneuvers like any other martial arts style.

Sounds great. I look forward to it.

Forty styles, eh? That oughta hold me. And you can be a Martial Arts Master in any of these? Excellent.

How does the Martial Artist fit into the picture with all of these different options? More of a generalist?

How did you address the brawler v. martial artist problem, where the street fighter keeps taking AoO?

 

[Ranger REG]

Brawl should have been called Advanced Unarmed Nonlethal Attacks. Combat Martial Arts should have been called Advanced Unarmed Lethal Attacks. It would have been so much easier for people to understand what they meant if they had gone that route.

Whoa. I'm not an English professor, but way that's too many syllables.

I mean what's next? Renaming the chapter "Altercation Rules"?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Sounds like "Sherlock Holmes, the RPG".

Subheadings include "Tussling" and "Fisticuffs".

I'd have to agree that lowering the requirements for the martial artist in order to make it more appealing to non-strong heroes can only be a bad idea. If you want the benefits of the fast hero martial artist, then you pay for your choices.

 

[JPL]

Whoa. I'm not an English professor, but way that's too many syllables.

I mean what's next? Renaming the chapter "Altercation Rules"?

Hey, don't argue with Mistwell. He's a lawyer. It's too expensive.

<Wink, wink, nudge, nudge>

Brawl must encompass more than nonlethal attacks --- otherwise, why is it a prereq for Streetfighting? Why does my skill at the gentle art of the KO also make me twice as lethal in a knife fight?

I submit that Brawl is intended to encompass quick and dirty, no-frills fighting in general --- the sort of stuff that you could learn without a teacher, other than the mean streets themselves.

What I'm trying to work out here is the idea that a highly experienced brawler --- someone who has had a minimum of formal training but a great deal of practical experience --- can fare surprisingly well against a black belt who may have never been in a serious fight.

Whether that's true in real life or not, I dunno. But for the purposes of the game [especially a Fight Club game like I'm proposing], a master streetfighter can be every bit as formidable as a Shaolin monk.

 

[JPL]

Sounds like "Sherlock Holmes, the RPG".

Subheadings include "Tussling" and "Fisticuffs".

I'd have to agree that lowering the requirements for the martial artist in order to make it more appealing to non-strong heroes can only be a bad idea. If you want the benefits of the fast hero martial artist, then you pay for your choices.

As I understand it, he created a new class called "Martial Arts Master," who specializes in a particular style and [I assume] doesn't have the raw power of a Martial Artist.

Is it too late to rename your new class? Maybe just Master, with the understanding that you can choose to be an Aikido Master or a Krav Maga Master or Viet Vo Dao Master?

 

[Vigilance]

The Martial Arts Master says that the characters usually refer to themselves by their style name, ie, Aikido Master.

As for lowering the BAB requirement, it made sense to me.

Strong Heroes have just an easy time entering the MAM as they do the Martial Artist. Strong Hero Martial Arts Masters will do more damage than their fast hero counterparts through the melee smash tree.

Depending on what class you enter the MAM from your abilities will differ slightly.

But again, removing the MAM class entirely, if you dont like it, still leaves you with well over 100 feats, lots of new weapons, and so forth.

I'm just trying to provide folks with alternatives

 

[Yeoman]

As for the Brawler in a tournament fight, I'd peg that as being Martial Arts, rather than Brawling. Having the Brawler spend one feat on Combat Martial Arts means that he never suffers an AoO while attacking, whether he's attacking to knock out or to kill.
-Tacky

I could have swore I saw in the ongoing d20 modern faq that mistwell is putting together, that if you can only use 1 feat or the other at any given time, let me see if I can find the entry in the faq....Here we go.

2. Brawl, Combat Martial Arts, Prone

Q: There are several feats like "Brawl" that raise the amount of non-lethal damage you do when you make an unarmed attack. My question is if these translate into lethal damage if I have the combat martial arts feat. In other words, if I have combat martial arts and brawl, do I deal 1D6 lethal or nonlethal, my choice. Or it that I can deal 1d4 lethal (combat martial arts) or 1d6 nonlethal (brawl)?

A: At any given time, you use one feat or the other. In other words:

If you want to deal nonlethal damage, and don't care if you're considered armed or unarmed, use the Brawl feat to deal 1d6 damage.

If you want to deal lethal damage, and/or you want to make an unarmed attack of opportunity (or not provoke an AoO when making your unarmed attack), use the Combat Martial Arts feat and deal only 1d4 damage.

Q: Later, add Advanced Martial artist, meaning that criticals are 18-20/x3. Then, add Knockout Punch and Improved Knockout Punch. Improved Knockout punch gives you a x3 critical. Does this mean that you use the d20-standard and
make that auto-critical x4 nonlethal when attacking a flat-footed opponent?

A: No. The benefits from the Combat Martial Arts feats do no stack with those of the Brawl feats.

65. More on CMA & Brawl

Q: Can a character alternate between CMA-lethal and Brawl-nonlethal unarmed attacks in a single full attack?

A: Absolutely. Why not?

 

[JPL]

Hmm...Vig, I think we need a new feat in the Brawl chain to reflect the ability to defend one's self against the martial arts while using a boxing/brawling style.

May I suggest "Punch Ninja in Face"?

The character is considered armed for the purposes of AoO, both giving and receiving.

Or something like that.