More on martial arts in d20 Modern

[takyris]

Actually, what I'd love even more is a book that gets into the nitty gritty of rules like that without having to add a bunch of new stuff.

Example:

How would people rule a character who wanted to run toward a parked car, jump up, slide across the hood, and kick a gun out of someone's hands?

How would you rule a character being attacked with a knife that was thrust between the bars of a stairway, and the character wants to use the bars to knock the knife out of the attacker's hands?

Brandon Lee in "Rapid Fire" -- doing a baseball slide across a floor to get under a table, then kicking out the legs of the table to protect him from gunfire?

As a GM, I'd love to put in more opportunities for players to do creative stuff like this -- but I also want rules that don't make it cheap and dirty. And I don't want to force people to choose from 300 feats. Most stuff is do-able through skill checks and attack rolls.

-Tacky

PS:

My opinions:

Tumble check with possible Synergy bonus from Jump. DC15. On success, treat it like a charge (+2 on the disarm check).

Stair bars provide one-half cover. Character makes a disarm check with a +2 bonus, and attacker with knife can't take an attack of opportunity because of the cover. (Although the bars have only a few hit points -- they won't stop bullets.)

Balance check with synergy bonus from Tumble (sliding any distance with control relies on balance), followed by a single attack -- on a success, the legs of the table are both broken, it falls down to protect him, and the table gives the character full cover from attackers at that angle.

 

[Vigilance]

Well taky, as I stated to begin with, I don't see Martial Arts coming from a specific stat, even within schools. I see there being TKD masters who concentrate on speed, and I see there being TKD masters who concentrate on strength.

Something in my rules that ties into what you're saying is that Jump is an imprtant skill for some of the TKD maneuvers (like flying kick). Jump is based on strength. However, when I watch TKD combat, I am impressed much more by the speed and fluidity of the style, as opposed to Karate.

Again, I don't pigeonhole the styles in terms of stats. Or at least I do it as little as is possible in a game BUILT on stats.

However, Karate *teaches* movements to be abrupt, and other stlyes, like TKD and JeetKuneDo *teach* that movements should be fluid. Again, to me, this equals Dexterity.

I have rules in the game for blocking, and a better BAB makes you better at blocking. So, again, what you're saying keys in with what I've been playtesting, because a Strong Hero would block better than a Fast Hero.

Now for Ki and Pressure Points, these are also feat based. Note that when I stated them as a strength of the Contemplative I said *best access* not *only access*. Martial Arts Masters, Mrtial Artists, Soldiers, whomever, all have access to these feats as long as they meet the prerequisites.

 

[Vigilance]

Personally, I would stick Aikido under dedicated, not even fast. Capoeira, Thai kickboxing, those are fast. And let's face it. Sumo is just tough hero all over, with some strong to back it up.

You read my mind on Aikido. Having martial artists come from the Dedicated hero had a lot more to do with my decision to make the BAB prerequisite of the Master +2 than anything to do with the Fast Hero.

Capoeira I'd agree with Speed.

Thai Kickboxing, I have to disagree and go with tough hero. The training for Thai kickboxing is so brutal (if done in the traditional style) that many fighters are too injured to compete because of things they endure in training. Due to the brutality of the sport's roots I see Thai Kickboxers coming from the Tough/Strong tree.

I think that is something that should really be addressed - the arts and styles that stem from other (than strong and fast) base classes.

My main thought on the matter, though, is this: Feats are cheap and easy to come by - not for your characters, but for you the players and DMs - there are literally thousands of feats out there, balanced and whacked, free and not, OGL or proprietary.

I don't want more feats, really - unless they are really good and really balanced and different from what I have already seen before and can download off the internet.

Well, I am not a big one for creating feats just cause. My other d20 Modern book (slated to debut in days, DAYS I say!) has a few feats, but nothing overly extensive. Especially considering the game has some new magic rules in it.

What I want is a neat, tidy system for adding in real-world (and cinema-world!) martial arts flavor, where I can dedicate my character to a specific martial art, and have it mean something in-game. Where I can have a player ask, "can I make my character do what Jackie Chan (Jet Li/Keanu Reeves/Samo Hueng/Chuch Norris/Bruce Lee) did in that movie we just saw?"

Well that idea is what started me off writing this book to begin with

I think using real world styles that I can put a name to is more fun for me and my players than Combat Martial Arts. My experience in playtesting this game is that characters with CMA tend to roll their dice and their damage. Whereas characters with Karate and Aikido roll play those feat choices differently, even if their combat actions are very similar.

(I hope this isn't coming off as overtly hostile - I am actually really excited about your product, and will probably by the ebook version! I'm just curious.)

thanks!
Jericho

I have yet to take any of the comments made in this discussion as hostile. Quite the opposite in fact. If I didn't want to listen, I wouldn't have jumped in

In fact, the comments here are being discussed, diced, and fought over in my playtest sessions.

I take these things seriously, so the book will be more fun when it debuts.

 

[Tellerve]

TKD fluid? Um, personnally I wouldn't have said that to describe it. While I'm not a master TKDer I have studied it for a couple years but have left it for more "fluid" martial arts like Tai Chi Chuan and Xing Yi (Hsing Yi). I've also studied Wing Chun, and again I would probably call that fluid as opposed to strong in TKD or Karate. From what I remember talking with friends about this and other forms is that karate and tkd do fairly strong blocks, whereas a lot of kung fu, the ones I've studied and other friends have studied seem to do transitional blocks. In that the block flows into an attack, especially I'm thinking of wing chun. You mentioned JKD, which has its roots in wing chun but then just went all over the place with bruce's conglomeration of various arts (never a bad thing).

I am interested in what people end up thinking about your book and all your feats and how well they integrate without cluttering. Hopefully I'll hear good things and buy it

As for brawling...a brawl is in my mind, and by pretty much definition a chaotic uncontroled fight. What it lacks in precision it makes up for with rage and anger. People who get in brawls have had that fight or flight scenario and decided the best way to survive is to hopefully pummel the living poo outta whomever. Where as martial arts, from the ones I've studied is about calming the mind and body to act quickly and decisively. One day in my xing yi class we were discussing how the art is very linear and how it is meant to just blow the energy through the enemy and bring them down quickly. I found this somewhat funny as I couldn't imagine any martial art that really wanted to keep the enemy up and active for any length of time.

Anyways, I think brawl and cma are fine as they are and have been faq'ed up You use brawl you get a shiny bonus to hit and have a chance to knock him out, but your not really going for a precise controlled strike. Just swinging for the fences so to speak. Your lack of control brings about those AoO, however, you are throwing around force and not caring so much where it lands as long as it is the enemy and often...therefore the plus(es) to hit and increased chance of knockout.

my 2...ok that was maybe 5 cents,

Tellerve

 

[Vigilance]

Well, I knew when I started this book that it was a situation where if you asked 5 people you'd get 6 opinions as the saying goes

Everyone's experiences with the martial arts is different. Mine comes from being raised by a retired Command Sgt Major who was a commando in WWII, served in the American army and in the CIA, and hanging around bases as an army brat watching sparring and such.

In keeping with my understanding that everyone was going to have a different perception, I have tried to make the book as free form as possible, including rules for designing your own styles and maneuvers.

Also, each martial art has 10 Mastery abilities, but each character only has access to 5- meaning that not only are the arts different from each other, but it is also possible to make two characters who are level 10 Masters in the same style who have almost nothing in common with how they fight.

Each art also has its own bonus feat list.

Also, the book continues to evolve from playtesting and feedback

So, while nothing is perfect, I can tell you I am doing everything I can to at least make this book inclusive.

 

[Vigilance]

Hey guys- there's a TOC and full feat list up for Blood and Fists

http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?page=pro&product_id=21

 

[Morgenstern]

The ToC looks very promising . Having done the equivalent product for Spycraft (the Pan Asian Collective chamber book), I have to say that they can be a lot of fun to put together. I'll be very curious to see how you approach representing real world styles by name. The ten abilites/you'll get five sounds promising to me. I hope that non-specialist characters will be able to at least achieve recognizable competence in an art without having to throw levels at it. It's nice to be able to say, "my character's a computer specialist, but he does go down to the gym and box on weekends" and be able to reflect that with not more BAB or HP, but some small, flavoraful effect (at the price of a feat or two and maybe some skill points, tops) that makes a mechanical nod to those weekends and the ways that boxing is different from the computer geek who spends two evenings a week at the local community center doing aikido .

I do have to agree with some of the comments earlier in the thread, that to come away completely satisfied, I'd really want to see some new combat actions and skill uses - so that there's some new options that everyone can do, or folks with the right skill set can do. Make a good unarmed encounter fun for more than just the specialist, and then maybe have some feats that let the specialist just dominate with those new actions or skill uses .

Looking forward to the print version (my computer's too much of a hunk of rock to do much with electronic books ).

 

[JPL]

Hey guys- there's a TOC and full feat list up for Blood and Fists

http://www.rpgobjects.com/index.php?page=pro&product_id=21

Vig, this looks like exactly what I'm been waiting for. Best of luck, and keep us posted.

 

[Vigilance]

Thanks Morgenstern and JPL

Morg, I have included some new uses for existing skills, and a lot of campaign information as well.

Also, since most of the martial arts maneuvers are feats, anyone can develop a fair degree skill- maybe not enough to beat a 10 Dan Black Belt, but certainly enough to be able to defend himself when his gun gets disarmed

We did a lot of playtesting Martial Arts Master vs. Regular character, and one of those playtest characters, a Strong Hero/Soldier was such a bad-ass you will get to see him in the book

So certainly my goal was to give something for both the specialist and the character seeking just to be able to defend himself

 

[JPL]

I'd noticed the same thing --- a Strong/Soldier specialized in unarmed combat can hit mighty hard.

Vig, I'm curious about how you're handling combinations. I see they're based around feats. Care to spill, or are you keeping your ninja secrets secret?