More on martial arts in d20 Modern
- Thread starter JPL
- Start date
Vigilance
Explorer
Comparison Shopping
I've been thinking long and hard about the discussion over balance between the Martial Artist, the Master, and the Contemplative. I summed up a sort of "cost benefit" look at each of the three classes, and I thought I'd share it with you guys and get your thoughts on it.
Martial Artist
Cost: +3 BAB, CMA, DMA, Jump 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Best BAB
Living Weapon- makes the Martial Artist more well rounded than either the Martial Arts Master or the Contemplative Master.
d8 HD
Martial Arts Master:
Cost: +2 BAB, CMA, one Martial Arts Style feat, Concentration 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Medium BAB
Better BAB and Damage in area favored by Style than Martial Artist through Masteries- in other words, a TaeKwonDo Master will have better BAB and damage while kicking than a Martial Artist- but will not have as good a BAB or damage when punching
Two Good Saves (Fortitude and Reflexes)
D8 HD
Contemplative Master:
Cost: +2 BAB, CMA, one Martial Arts Style, Concentration 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Medium BAB
Better access to Ki and Pressure Points Masteries than any other class. Worse damage than either Martial Arts Master or Martial Artist.
Two Good Saves: (Reflexes and Will)
D6 HD
Questions and Comments are welcome as always
I've been thinking long and hard about the discussion over balance between the Martial Artist, the Master, and the Contemplative. I summed up a sort of "cost benefit" look at each of the three classes, and I thought I'd share it with you guys and get your thoughts on it.
Martial Artist
Cost: +3 BAB, CMA, DMA, Jump 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Best BAB
Living Weapon- makes the Martial Artist more well rounded than either the Martial Arts Master or the Contemplative Master.
d8 HD
Martial Arts Master:
Cost: +2 BAB, CMA, one Martial Arts Style feat, Concentration 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Medium BAB
Better BAB and Damage in area favored by Style than Martial Artist through Masteries- in other words, a TaeKwonDo Master will have better BAB and damage while kicking than a Martial Artist- but will not have as good a BAB or damage when punching
Two Good Saves (Fortitude and Reflexes)
D8 HD
Contemplative Master:
Cost: +2 BAB, CMA, one Martial Arts Style, Concentration 3 Ranks
Benefit:
Medium BAB
Better access to Ki and Pressure Points Masteries than any other class. Worse damage than either Martial Arts Master or Martial Artist.
Two Good Saves: (Reflexes and Will)
D6 HD
Questions and Comments are welcome as always
Yeoman: Bummer. I knew that DAMAGE had to be done via brawl or CMA, but I didn't think that the AoO-provoking was dependent. That's unfortunate and somewhat lame. Heck, that makes a lot of this thread more valid, if there's no way for a Brawler to NOT provoke an AoO.
Mistwell: Complete Agreement. I know that they named stuff they way that they did for flavor text, but too many times, people are looing at the titles and taking things based on those titles, rather than on the actual effects.
I think that this is about half the fault of the designers, for not naming things in a less misunderstandable way (and not putting a paragraph or two more about flavor text and description), and about half the fault of the players, for not being able to look past names.
Since it's a bit too late to change the names of the feats, I'm attacking the Players angle more strongly -- like in this case the, "My Boxer doesn't work well with Brawl, so I'll make up new feats that make him just as strong as a martial artist!", when in fact a Boxer IS a martial artist -- just a different flavor-text of one (Heck, there was a General Thread awhile back where all these boxers irritatedly insisted that they were martial artists and that they should be treated exactly like other martial artists in terms of respect and applicability and all that. Here's their chance to shine!).
JPL wrote:
Um... because the ability to knock someone out quickly and easily with little permanent harm is tied into pressure points, and learning about ways to make pinpoint strikes more effective with a light weapon is a logical extension of that same pressure-point theory?
Have you actually practiced any martial art? I intend no offense. I'm just not sure if you're tied in really strongly to the flavor-text feat-names, or if you're operating under incorrect assumptions about the martial arts.
Heck, I know nothing about guns, and I'm a decidedly average driver -- which is why I don't try to add new gun feats or change the driving rules.
I submit that Combat Martial Arts can cover that. Just because it's a fighting style that you taught yourself by fighting to survive on the streets doesn't mean it's less valid than any other martial art. Originally, martial arts were created by people making stuff up after thinking about how their last fights went. Just say that the guy fights with a different style -- make the flavor text different. Choose feats that are in keeping with what you see as his style. There's no reason to make new feats for what you want to do.
I also submit that Brawl is NOT quick-and-dirty no-frills fighting. Because, according to the actual rules, that's not what it actually does. Trying to make it do that is like looking at Endurance and deciding that it should also give you more hit points, because hit points are how you Endure damage in d20 Modern. You're getting hung up on the name.
Of course he could. Your "Brawler" has CMA, Improved CMA, and Advanced CMA, and likely has levels in Soldier (if he's fought as a team with others) and/or Martial Artist. He doesn't even need the Brawl Feat -- a Martial Artist doing 1d10 damage plus strength bonuses and critical stuff can choose to do nonlethal damage, add a flying kick, and be well over the Massive Damage Threshold of most people. Ta-dah. I've just made a street-trained knockout specialist, and I didn't even use Brawl or add new feats. The "black belt" you describe is likely a Strong3 with one or two martial arts feats.
Nowhere in the description of the Martial Arts feats does it say anything about requiring formal training in a school where you wear gis or hakamas and practice bowing. You're confusing game rules and flavor text.
-Tacky
Mistwell: Complete Agreement. I know that they named stuff they way that they did for flavor text, but too many times, people are looing at the titles and taking things based on those titles, rather than on the actual effects.
I think that this is about half the fault of the designers, for not naming things in a less misunderstandable way (and not putting a paragraph or two more about flavor text and description), and about half the fault of the players, for not being able to look past names.
Since it's a bit too late to change the names of the feats, I'm attacking the Players angle more strongly -- like in this case the, "My Boxer doesn't work well with Brawl, so I'll make up new feats that make him just as strong as a martial artist!", when in fact a Boxer IS a martial artist -- just a different flavor-text of one (Heck, there was a General Thread awhile back where all these boxers irritatedly insisted that they were martial artists and that they should be treated exactly like other martial artists in terms of respect and applicability and all that. Here's their chance to shine!).
JPL wrote:
Um... because the ability to knock someone out quickly and easily with little permanent harm is tied into pressure points, and learning about ways to make pinpoint strikes more effective with a light weapon is a logical extension of that same pressure-point theory?
Have you actually practiced any martial art? I intend no offense. I'm just not sure if you're tied in really strongly to the flavor-text feat-names, or if you're operating under incorrect assumptions about the martial arts.
Heck, I know nothing about guns, and I'm a decidedly average driver -- which is why I don't try to add new gun feats or change the driving rules.
I submit that Combat Martial Arts can cover that. Just because it's a fighting style that you taught yourself by fighting to survive on the streets doesn't mean it's less valid than any other martial art. Originally, martial arts were created by people making stuff up after thinking about how their last fights went. Just say that the guy fights with a different style -- make the flavor text different. Choose feats that are in keeping with what you see as his style. There's no reason to make new feats for what you want to do.
I also submit that Brawl is NOT quick-and-dirty no-frills fighting. Because, according to the actual rules, that's not what it actually does. Trying to make it do that is like looking at Endurance and deciding that it should also give you more hit points, because hit points are how you Endure damage in d20 Modern. You're getting hung up on the name.
Of course he could. Your "Brawler" has CMA, Improved CMA, and Advanced CMA, and likely has levels in Soldier (if he's fought as a team with others) and/or Martial Artist. He doesn't even need the Brawl Feat -- a Martial Artist doing 1d10 damage plus strength bonuses and critical stuff can choose to do nonlethal damage, add a flying kick, and be well over the Massive Damage Threshold of most people. Ta-dah. I've just made a street-trained knockout specialist, and I didn't even use Brawl or add new feats. The "black belt" you describe is likely a Strong3 with one or two martial arts feats.
Nowhere in the description of the Martial Arts feats does it say anything about requiring formal training in a school where you wear gis or hakamas and practice bowing. You're confusing game rules and flavor text.
-Tacky
"Um... because the ability to knock someone out quickly and easily with little permanent harm is tied into pressure points, and learning about ways to make pinpoint strikes more effective with a light weapon is a logical extension of that same pressure-point theory?"
Tak, I'm sure that it's my lack of ninja training that is causing my confusion, but I look at words like "Brawl" and "Streetfighting" and assume that the designers did not choose them at random. I assume that the designers have a sufficient command of the English language and the d20 system such that the mechanics of the feat are reasonably closely related to the name of the feat.
The word "brawl" has the connotation of a free-for-all. It's not a match, it's not a duel, it's not a sparring session. Although in game terms it makes it easier to "do no permanent harm," Brawling involves hitting someone as hard as you can to produce unconsciousness. The brawler is not doing hit point damage, true --- that does not mean he is doing some sort of Vulcan nerve pinch. I'm pretty sure that we're talking trying to make the other guy's brain bump into his skull until he stops moving.
The word "streetfighting" has the connotation of down-n-dirty, no-holds-barred, anything goes fighting. In my ignorance, I tend to assume that the feat is supposed to reflect some sort of tactics that are an extension of "Brawling" and are found "on the streets" [i.e., practical, real-life situations, versus the supposedly artificial environment of the dojo].
I agree with you --- the extra die of damage probably relates to "pressure points" or sensitive areas. But we're talking about knee to the groin, thumb in the eye, knife in the windpipe. Lots of formal martial arts styles teach this stuff, true --- but a streetfighter has skipped all the kata and history and simply concentrated on a few dirty but effective techniques, and he's conditioned himself to stick a knife in another man's eye without flinching.
Again, I was not raised by Shaolin, so I may be wrong...but if these feats are supposed to be nothing more than "Nonlethal Combat", does it make any sense that they are bonus feats for Strong and Tough heroes? Does "pressure point manipulation" require you to hit the pressure point as hard as you can?
Tak, I'm sure that it's my lack of ninja training that is causing my confusion, but I look at words like "Brawl" and "Streetfighting" and assume that the designers did not choose them at random. I assume that the designers have a sufficient command of the English language and the d20 system such that the mechanics of the feat are reasonably closely related to the name of the feat.
The word "brawl" has the connotation of a free-for-all. It's not a match, it's not a duel, it's not a sparring session. Although in game terms it makes it easier to "do no permanent harm," Brawling involves hitting someone as hard as you can to produce unconsciousness. The brawler is not doing hit point damage, true --- that does not mean he is doing some sort of Vulcan nerve pinch. I'm pretty sure that we're talking trying to make the other guy's brain bump into his skull until he stops moving.
The word "streetfighting" has the connotation of down-n-dirty, no-holds-barred, anything goes fighting. In my ignorance, I tend to assume that the feat is supposed to reflect some sort of tactics that are an extension of "Brawling" and are found "on the streets" [i.e., practical, real-life situations, versus the supposedly artificial environment of the dojo].
I agree with you --- the extra die of damage probably relates to "pressure points" or sensitive areas. But we're talking about knee to the groin, thumb in the eye, knife in the windpipe. Lots of formal martial arts styles teach this stuff, true --- but a streetfighter has skipped all the kata and history and simply concentrated on a few dirty but effective techniques, and he's conditioned himself to stick a knife in another man's eye without flinching.
Again, I was not raised by Shaolin, so I may be wrong...but if these feats are supposed to be nothing more than "Nonlethal Combat", does it make any sense that they are bonus feats for Strong and Tough heroes? Does "pressure point manipulation" require you to hit the pressure point as hard as you can?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I think that they have made some mistakes in the names of some feats (although it is difficult to imagine what else they might call some feats!), and also in the prerequisites for some feats.
I might disagree with some of the prereqs too for that matter.
To the point in hand though - when I see "brawl", I imagine someone who is used to working people over; it speaks of a certain kind of attitude which is not only willing to hit people, but is getting better at it. Streetfighting is just another way to go from that starting point. Someone is used to getting into fist fights and has been getting better at it, and then moves into the nasty side of it and is used to using kidney punches, eye gouges and strikes to the groin.
I might disagree with some of the prereqs too for that matter.
To the point in hand though - when I see "brawl", I imagine someone who is used to working people over; it speaks of a certain kind of attitude which is not only willing to hit people, but is getting better at it. Streetfighting is just another way to go from that starting point. Someone is used to getting into fist fights and has been getting better at it, and then moves into the nasty side of it and is used to using kidney punches, eye gouges and strikes to the groin.
JPL: Interesting points... lessee:
Well, we can't all be deadly ninja masters.
(cough, cough)
This would be where you and I differ in opinion. I certainly agree that brawling is ONE possible interpretation of the Brawl feat, but I treat it as the coin and nickel scenario:
If my character is described as a bar-room bruiser who knocks people out cold, he probably has the Brawl feat.
However, just because my character has the Brawl feat does not mean he MUST be that bar-room bruiser. There are other interpretations for that feat, based on the mechanic.
But this ain't a freeform LARP. The rules are the closest thing we have to a tangible expression of mutually agreed-upon imagination.
You're attempting to declare what I can and cannot imagine based on a rules mechanic. I might not go for the Vulcan nerve pinch, but I might very well say that he's trying for smart strikes to the jaw or temple instead of body shots or face shots. What's more, you're declaring that I have to imagine it in YOUR way, but your way is not consistent with the rule mechanic as written.
In real-life, I have far too much experience with the actual mechanics of knocking people out without causing them permanent harm to believe that nonlethal damage involves "making the other guy's brain bump into his skull until he stops moving". That's not consistent with Brawl. That's consistent with doing enough lethal damage to take them to -1 hit points. Someone knocked out that way has a good chance of stabilizing and being fine, but there is a chance that they could die.
Sure. No problems there. I'd say that the difference between saying something is a pressure-point strike and saying something is cheap-shot dirty-fighting is whether or not you like the guy who's doing it.
A well-trained street fighter is going to have the same knowledge of where to hit a guy to make it hurt a little more that a wizened old man meditating for years under a waterfall is going to have. One guy calls it knowledge of ki centers. One guy calls it "hit 'em where it hurts." By the rules mechanics, both of them have taken Streetfighting.
That's your flavor text again. My martial arts school taught me a technique that involved five successively uglier strikes to the groin (in a way that made logical sense and was practical on the street). I can do that without flinching.
Adding in kata doesn't mean that it's somehow no longer the Streetfighting technique. Since I do kata as well, I'm apparently a dude with the Streetfighting feat and a few ranks in perform (Dance).
Sure. It's melee combat. That's what Strong and Tough heroes are supposed to be best at.
And now you're stripping away all the flavor text of the feat and comparing a bare rules mechanic to the flavor-text interpretation of a Strong or Tough hero.
It can "make sense" for them to be bonus feats in any number of ways, depending on the character you have created.
Of course not. And neither does Streetfighting. If you want to play by flavor-text rules, "Hitting as hard as you can" is Power Attack, part of a completely different feat chain. By flavor-text arguments, one might wonder why Power Attack isn't a requirement for your version of Streetfighting.
Does it make sense for your "untrained, no-holds-barred, rough-hewn" brawler guy to pick up a rapier and start tosssing off swashbuckling witticisms? With your flavor-text restrictions, the swashbuckler-and-duelist-friendly "Improved Feint" feat, which requires Brawl and Streetfighting, could only be taken by bar-room drunks whose greatest thrill in life is rattling brains around in skulls.
I respect the fact that you've thought about this, but I don't see anything in this that makes me think that Brawl needs to be advanced to a separate form of martial arts. The reason that they called it "martial arts" and not "Aikido", "Boxing", "Capoiera", "Dragon Style Kung Fu", "Escrima", or any of the other letters of the alphabet, is because it was assumed that characters would be taking the feats that gave the closest approximation of the rules mechanics to let them add their own flavor text in.
You take CMA and Power Attack and call yourself a Karate expert.
You take CMA, DMA, and Elusive Target and call yourself a Capoiera expert.
You take CMA, Dodge, Brawl, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Agile Riposte, and you call yourself a boxer.
You take DMA, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Combat Throw and call yourself an Aikdo or Jujitsu expert.
I'm definitely looking forward to Vigilance's list of additional martial arts feats, but I would hate to see complexity added where complexity does not need to be added.
-Tacky
Well, we can't all be deadly ninja masters.
(cough, cough)
This would be where you and I differ in opinion. I certainly agree that brawling is ONE possible interpretation of the Brawl feat, but I treat it as the coin and nickel scenario:
If my character is described as a bar-room bruiser who knocks people out cold, he probably has the Brawl feat.
However, just because my character has the Brawl feat does not mean he MUST be that bar-room bruiser. There are other interpretations for that feat, based on the mechanic.
But this ain't a freeform LARP. The rules are the closest thing we have to a tangible expression of mutually agreed-upon imagination.
You're attempting to declare what I can and cannot imagine based on a rules mechanic. I might not go for the Vulcan nerve pinch, but I might very well say that he's trying for smart strikes to the jaw or temple instead of body shots or face shots. What's more, you're declaring that I have to imagine it in YOUR way, but your way is not consistent with the rule mechanic as written.
In real-life, I have far too much experience with the actual mechanics of knocking people out without causing them permanent harm to believe that nonlethal damage involves "making the other guy's brain bump into his skull until he stops moving". That's not consistent with Brawl. That's consistent with doing enough lethal damage to take them to -1 hit points. Someone knocked out that way has a good chance of stabilizing and being fine, but there is a chance that they could die.
Sure. No problems there. I'd say that the difference between saying something is a pressure-point strike and saying something is cheap-shot dirty-fighting is whether or not you like the guy who's doing it.
A well-trained street fighter is going to have the same knowledge of where to hit a guy to make it hurt a little more that a wizened old man meditating for years under a waterfall is going to have. One guy calls it knowledge of ki centers. One guy calls it "hit 'em where it hurts." By the rules mechanics, both of them have taken Streetfighting.
That's your flavor text again. My martial arts school taught me a technique that involved five successively uglier strikes to the groin (in a way that made logical sense and was practical on the street). I can do that without flinching.
Adding in kata doesn't mean that it's somehow no longer the Streetfighting technique. Since I do kata as well, I'm apparently a dude with the Streetfighting feat and a few ranks in perform (Dance).
Sure. It's melee combat. That's what Strong and Tough heroes are supposed to be best at.
And now you're stripping away all the flavor text of the feat and comparing a bare rules mechanic to the flavor-text interpretation of a Strong or Tough hero.
It can "make sense" for them to be bonus feats in any number of ways, depending on the character you have created.
Of course not. And neither does Streetfighting. If you want to play by flavor-text rules, "Hitting as hard as you can" is Power Attack, part of a completely different feat chain. By flavor-text arguments, one might wonder why Power Attack isn't a requirement for your version of Streetfighting.
Does it make sense for your "untrained, no-holds-barred, rough-hewn" brawler guy to pick up a rapier and start tosssing off swashbuckling witticisms? With your flavor-text restrictions, the swashbuckler-and-duelist-friendly "Improved Feint" feat, which requires Brawl and Streetfighting, could only be taken by bar-room drunks whose greatest thrill in life is rattling brains around in skulls.
I respect the fact that you've thought about this, but I don't see anything in this that makes me think that Brawl needs to be advanced to a separate form of martial arts. The reason that they called it "martial arts" and not "Aikido", "Boxing", "Capoiera", "Dragon Style Kung Fu", "Escrima", or any of the other letters of the alphabet, is because it was assumed that characters would be taking the feats that gave the closest approximation of the rules mechanics to let them add their own flavor text in.
You take CMA and Power Attack and call yourself a Karate expert.
You take CMA, DMA, and Elusive Target and call yourself a Capoiera expert.
You take CMA, Dodge, Brawl, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Agile Riposte, and you call yourself a boxer.
You take DMA, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Combat Throw and call yourself an Aikdo or Jujitsu expert.
I'm definitely looking forward to Vigilance's list of additional martial arts feats, but I would hate to see complexity added where complexity does not need to be added.
-Tacky
jerichothebard
First Post
takyris said:
Very well said... although something I would like to see is a list of 'martial arts' schools (from Aikido through Big George's School of Boxing through Felix and Jonathan's School of Swashbuckling and on into Kendo and everything else) that tells you what feats and skills are available where. - So that, if you are interested in picking up a specific ability, you know where to go, and if you are in a specific school, you know what you can get.
for example (drawing off a style I have studied but just throwing this together on my lunch break):
Aikido
Feats:
Defensive Martial Arts
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Elusive Target
Improved Trip
Improved Combat Throw
Dodge
Probably a couple grappling feats that I don't know the names of offhand (there are several in the Martial Arts Mayhem experiments from Game Mech, which are OGL).
maybe some of vigilant's Ki feats.
Weapon Proficiency: Staff, Knife, Sword, Club (special: Defensive Only (?))
Skills:
Concentration
Healing
Knowledge: Zen
etc.
(and I know that it could be somewhat controversial; in fact Rich Redman has been very hesitant about the idea of including real-world Martial arts into Martial Arts Mayhem because of the possible huge amounts of negative feedback it could cause.)
I would also like to see a martial arts advanced class that, instead of laying out the specifics of potential character advancement with specific abilities, just lays the groundwork for taking special martial arts abilities/feats - a specialized fighter-type, with the school providing your list of bonus feats and class skills. Maybe make two or three, a hard and a soft and a middle ground, and the different classes give some special abilities and some bonus feats.
Allow the martial artist to do crossovers between styles, but only within their hard/soft/middle classification... so an aikidoka could take a feat from the Judo list, without penalty (LOTS of crossover there, I say from experience) but not from Kyokushanki (sp?) Karate.
I think a little complexity added in is ok, if it is a) balanced with the other advanced classes, and b) in the name of allowing players and DM's to customize their character to fit their vision.
remember the golden rule of RPG design, though - if you have written something, and you can't think of a reason anyone wouldn't want to take it, it is probably too good.
Thoughts?
jericho
Vigilance
Explorer
takyris said:
Im glad you're looking forward to them! (It beats being totally disinterested at any rate lol.
While it's still a little too early in the process for me to post a complete feat list, I will say that what I have tried to do is provide options, not overwhelm with complexity.
I'm also interested if there are any comments on the comparisons between my two advanced classes with the Martial Artist. I really sort of layed my cards on the table with that one.
Does the lack of response mean I quelled the wringing of hands with my powers of game design? Or is that snoring I hear in the audience
Hey, Vigilance:
As far as your classes go:
I sort of worry about "more well-rounded". I'll explain why below.
So let's see.
Better saves. Easier entry. One could argue that Concentration is a non-utilitarian price to pay, since it doesn't come up much in d20 Modern -- unless you added multiple feats that make use of Concentration checks.
What kind of worries me is that the Master has drawbacks and strengths that, right now, are kind of unclear. What's the rule mechanic for when a TKD Master can kick versus when he has to punch? Right now, there's an unarmed strike is whatever I flavor-text it to be, so why wouldn't I just ALWAYS kick?
If it's more limited, then great, but right now, you've taken the Martial Artist class, made it easier to get in, given them better saves, and given them a restriction that they would have taken anyway -- that is to say, someone who was playing a TKD Master would already be describing their stuff as kicks. Now they get bonuses for doing so.
Perhaps I don't understand how you'd differentiate between the different strikes. Maybe there's a limit on kicks, or they have to be positioned a certain way?
This could be great, or it could be overpowered, depending on what the Ki stuff looks like. On the one hand, I'm generally against Ki-user classes as separate from "normal" martial artists, because any good school eventually teaches its students about Ki and pressure point strikes. On the other hand, if this would work with multiclassing -- start out Martial Artist and then take Contemplative Artist at higher levels -- it could work well. That sort of turns it into a prestige class, though.
One other thing that I had noticed, and I really disagree. I get into this argument a lot, and I'm prepared to agree to disagree, but:
TKD should not equal Fast. They might BE fast, but TKD practitioners do not get their power from the d20 interpretation of Dexterity. They get their power from the d20 interpretation of Strength. TKD should come from Strong.
In d20, Strength is a combination of "raw power" and "coordination of large muscle movements".
Dexterity is "fine manipulation", "agility", "reflexes", and "hand-eye coordination for ranged purposes".
TKD practitioners are known for blocking strikes, not dodging out of the way. That takes away from the agility factor. They are known for doing impressive kicks and for hitting hard with them -- which is Strength, not Dexterity.
That's why we use Strength on attack rolls -- because it's only partly about how hard you hit. It's also about having the hand-eye coordination to swing it at the right place. If you're determining where the weapon goes with your shoulders, waist, or arms, it's Strength. Only if you're using your fingertips to determine where it goes does Dexterity enter the picture (ranged weapons, finesse).
Since you mentioned TKD as a Fast-based martial art, I had to bring that up. Anything that uses a "hard" style absolutely positively has to be Strong. No exceptions. It can have Fast Hero practitioners, but that shouldn't be the norm.
"Strong" Martial Arts
Karate
TKD
(anything)-Ryu
"Fast" Martial Arts -- Maybe
Capoeira
Some of the softer Kung-Fu styles
Aikido
-Tacky
As far as your classes go:
I sort of worry about "more well-rounded". I'll explain why below.
So let's see.
Better saves. Easier entry. One could argue that Concentration is a non-utilitarian price to pay, since it doesn't come up much in d20 Modern -- unless you added multiple feats that make use of Concentration checks.
What kind of worries me is that the Master has drawbacks and strengths that, right now, are kind of unclear. What's the rule mechanic for when a TKD Master can kick versus when he has to punch? Right now, there's an unarmed strike is whatever I flavor-text it to be, so why wouldn't I just ALWAYS kick?
If it's more limited, then great, but right now, you've taken the Martial Artist class, made it easier to get in, given them better saves, and given them a restriction that they would have taken anyway -- that is to say, someone who was playing a TKD Master would already be describing their stuff as kicks. Now they get bonuses for doing so.
Perhaps I don't understand how you'd differentiate between the different strikes. Maybe there's a limit on kicks, or they have to be positioned a certain way?
This could be great, or it could be overpowered, depending on what the Ki stuff looks like. On the one hand, I'm generally against Ki-user classes as separate from "normal" martial artists, because any good school eventually teaches its students about Ki and pressure point strikes. On the other hand, if this would work with multiclassing -- start out Martial Artist and then take Contemplative Artist at higher levels -- it could work well. That sort of turns it into a prestige class, though.
One other thing that I had noticed, and I really disagree. I get into this argument a lot, and I'm prepared to agree to disagree, but:
TKD should not equal Fast. They might BE fast, but TKD practitioners do not get their power from the d20 interpretation of Dexterity. They get their power from the d20 interpretation of Strength. TKD should come from Strong.
In d20, Strength is a combination of "raw power" and "coordination of large muscle movements".
Dexterity is "fine manipulation", "agility", "reflexes", and "hand-eye coordination for ranged purposes".
TKD practitioners are known for blocking strikes, not dodging out of the way. That takes away from the agility factor. They are known for doing impressive kicks and for hitting hard with them -- which is Strength, not Dexterity.
That's why we use Strength on attack rolls -- because it's only partly about how hard you hit. It's also about having the hand-eye coordination to swing it at the right place. If you're determining where the weapon goes with your shoulders, waist, or arms, it's Strength. Only if you're using your fingertips to determine where it goes does Dexterity enter the picture (ranged weapons, finesse).
Since you mentioned TKD as a Fast-based martial art, I had to bring that up. Anything that uses a "hard" style absolutely positively has to be Strong. No exceptions. It can have Fast Hero practitioners, but that shouldn't be the norm.
"Strong" Martial Arts
Karate
TKD
(anything)-Ryu
"Fast" Martial Arts -- Maybe
Capoeira
Some of the softer Kung-Fu styles
Aikido
-Tacky
jerichothebard
First Post
takyris said:
Personally, I would stick Aikido under dedicated, not even fast. Capoeira, Thai kickboxing, those are fast. And let's face it. Sumo is just tough hero all over, with some strong to back it up.
I think that is something that should really be addressed - the arts and styles that stem from other (than strong and fast) base classes.
My main thought on the matter, though, is this: Feats are cheap and easy to come by - not for your characters, but for you the players and DMs - there are literally thousands of feats out there, balanced and whacked, free and not, OGL or proprietary.
I don't want more feats, really - unless they are really good and really balanced and different from what I have already seen before and can download off the internet.
What I want is a neat, tidy system for adding in real-world (and cinema-world!) martial arts flavor, where I can dedicate my character to a specific martial art, and have it mean something in-game. Where I can have a player ask, "can I make my character do what Jackie Chan (Jet Li/Keanu Reeves/Samo Hueng/Chuch Norris/Bruce Lee) did in that movie we just saw?"
I very much enjoyed the flavor of Palladium's Ninjas and Superspies (although I have many reservations about the system and company) because of this aspect - LOTS of martial arts, some silly, some serious, some movie style, some not. (Not real balanced, but....)
(I hope this isn't coming off as overtly hostile - I am actually really excited about your product, and will probably by the ebook version! I'm just curious.)
thanks!
Jericho
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