More "realistic" advancement in D&D?

[mmadsen]

The power curve is at least as important as the rate of advancement.

In fact, the power curve and the rate of advancement don't mean anything without the other.

But power isn't one-dimensional either, and certain elements of the power curve strain credibility, while others seem perfectly natural. It doesn't seem odd at all for Robin Hood or Legolas to more-or-less always hit and more-or-less always kill his target. It doesn't seem odd at all for Musashi or Lancelot to do the same with his sword -- or even with a wooden sword.

It does seem odd that these characters know they cannot be killed, or even meaningfully hurt, by the first 10 arrows they take. We can certainly narrate our way around that, but it does feel "unrealistic" to many, many people.

Magic also feels unrealistic, of course, but there things get murky, because we all know magic isn't real -- but some kinds of magic nonetheless move the game away from "realistic" and toward "unrealistic", because they imply a world nothing like quasi-medieval Europe. With cheap and easy magic at their fingertips, spellcasters could presumably create an unrecognizable world. At the very least, certain spells, or combinations of spells, make armies obsolete or make standard adventures meaningless. On a larger scale, they would produce an entirely different society.

 

[Garthanos]

We do??!?

I think I missed that class... The party as an entity sometimes needs some plot protection. Individual characters within said party do not. They can be replaced, as long as one character (and thus, the party entity) survives.

Yeah
IF you make resurrection as EASY as it is in the default setting and like death (and whatever "risk" associated) to be inconsequential
OR
IF you think player characters are low investment items easily tossed aside.

Neither is in my hit parade.

 

[Garthanos]

It does seem odd that these characters know they cannot be killed, or even meaningfully hurt, by the first 10 arrows they take. .

The characters dont know that .. the players do.

 

[Lanefan]

The characters dont know that .. the players do.

And said players are somewhat likely to play said characters based on said knowledge...and therein lies the problem.

Lan-"happy new year"-efan

 

[Snoweel]

And said players are somewhat likely to play said characters based on said knowledge...and therein lies the problem.

Is cinematic play a 'problem'?

 

[Garthanos]

Acting on the awareness that there is a predictable buffer of luck and skill and energy etc... is where you get players making choices for there character that are "reasonable for the player" and "heroic for the character". I wont pretend there isn't also the possibility of that being "seemingly stoooopid for the character". In my opinion it is the players job to avoid this latter case.

 

[S'mon]

One thing I got from this thread is the idea of using E30 for 4e - after 30th level, every chunk of level-up XP gets you a new Feat. That seems like a very nice simple tweak to the core rules for long term play. And in an Heroic-tier or Paragon-tier world you can do E10 or E20 instead.

 

[mmadsen]

Acting on the awareness that there is a predictable buffer of luck and skill and energy etc... is where you get players making choices for there character that are "reasonable for the player" and "heroic for the character".

It's not just heroic PCs who get a buffer of luck and divine intervention in D&D; it's anyone competent.

And that buffer of luck and divine intervention does not protect them from many things, just "hits" that do "damage".

 

[Snoweel]

It's not just heroic PCs who get a buffer of luck and divine intervention in D&D; it's anyone competent.

Surely villains need plot protection too. Though I'd agree that not as many of them do.

Then again, that hp buffer protects them from dying before they get a chance to surrender.

And that buffer of luck and divine intervention does not protect them from many things, just "hits" that do "damage".

Don't forget, everything does damage in 4e.

 

[Garthanos]

Yup, pretty much anything that is an attack is... wears away at your luck in 4e.

And villains can have a buffer of luck (after all heros need some way to shine). It reminds of the line Harry Potter where the wand vendor describes Valdimorte as doing great things... great and terrible but great never the less.

Minions can be very high level, they are not incompetant.

Admittedly lots of this discussion applies to every version of D&D .... but 4e basically brought home hit points, they now conform closer to their definition than they ever did before.