More spell-centric bard; balanced?

[Mouseferatu]

Okay, I realize that the following strips the bard of some of its flavor. But purely in terms of mechanical balance, not flavor...

Take the bard. Remove the specific bard spell list. Instead, give him access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list (albeit only up to 6th level, which is where the bard maxes out). Remove the bard's various bardic/musical abilities.

Less flavorful, yes, but with a much wider range of spells.

Balanced? Or does the loss of the musical abilities and the unique bard spells (such as arcane healing or song of discord) not make up for the addition of heavy-hitting arcane spells?

And why do you feel it is or isn't balanced?

 

[Nifft]

In some ways it will be more powerful (Scorching Ray with a good BAB); but in many, it will be less powerful (Suggestion is back to 3rd level instead of 2nd).

Are you keeping the Bard's immunity to ASF in light armor? If so, it's a very odd class.

What's your goal here? If it's to beef up the Bard's spell abilities, why not create a Bardic PrC that advances spellcasting and adds some specific group of spells to the Bard's list (say, Necromancy or Conjuration)?

-- N

 

[Mouseferatu]

In some ways it will be more powerful (Scorching Ray with a good BAB); but in many, it will be less powerful (Suggestion is back to 3rd level instead of 2nd).

Are you keeping the Bard's immunity to ASF in light armor? If so, it's a very odd class.

What's your goal here? If it's to beef up the Bard's spell abilities, why not create a Bardic PrC that advances spellcasting and adds some specific group of spells to the Bard's list (say, Necromancy or Conjuration)?

-- N

Well, I'm pretty much just pondering various alterations because nobody in my current group likes the bard very much. I'm just trying to find ways to change it around without A) unbalancing it, and B) changing it so much that you can't even call it a bard anymore. (I know I'm already treading pretty close to that with the above modification.)

I hadn't decided about the ASF in light armor yet, honestly.

 

[Nifft]

3.5e Bard is really quite good. I've always liked the concept, and I think that 3.5e gets it good enough to be useable.

If your PCs don't want one, that's fine too. 3.5e gets quite a few classes "right enough" to make nearly every one a good choice.

Wait until they're high level, then throw a Bard bad guy at them... "His song gives WHAT bonus to his minions?!", "He casts Suggestion as a WHAT level spell?!?", "Modify Memory is a Bard exclusive spell?!?!?", "Glibness does WHAT?!?", etc.

Good fun for everyone, especially you, when their Kobold captors mock them for being captured by a Bard.

-- N

 

[Mouseferatu]

Oh, I agree they've got potential. (I'm still strongly considering throw a bard lich at them at some point in the future.)

But as far as playing them, nobody likes. It's not a "power" thing; I think they just don't like the way the class is set up.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that my idea above makes for a "better" bard. Just a differently themed, less-focused one.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Just remember that when you take away the bard songs, you take away one spell per character level. My 6th level bard can only cast a very small number of spells per day, but its made up for by the fact that I have in addition to those small number of spells 6 additional "bardic music" spells, most of which are much more powerful than a "normal" spell equivalent.

Heck, the DC to save against my bards Fascinate is going to be 14+D20....and I haven't even done anything to try to have a super high Perform skill. Taking away the bard music is taking away one of the more powerful assets that I have.

If you do decide to change around the bard, then I would suggest bumping him up to D8, and replacing the bard songs with extra combat feats and making a more skald-type bard.

DS

 

[AnthonyJ]

The problem with the bard, why people don't play them, is that they're fundamentally not a class for dungeon crawling. They're about social skills. In a heavily political game, bards are scary-powerful.

 

[bensei]

Well, I'm pretty much just pondering various alterations because nobody in my current group likes the bard very much. I'm just trying to find ways to change it around without A) unbalancing it, and B) changing it so much that you can't even call it a bard anymore. (I know I'm already treading pretty close to that with the above modification.)

You can have a look at the Minstrel in the Umbragia Setting. It is in the Book of Arcane Casters, which is free for download (PDF).

Compared to the Bard, the Minstrel has access to some Sor/Wiz-spells, more focus on (and power from) a certain instrument, casts spells with a mana point system, etc. This class could help/inspire you with some of your ideas.

 

[Greybar]

random thoughts:

How about having them play a sorcerer (mechanically) whose ability is described through song (rather than draconic blood or whatever). I.e. flavor-change, no mechanism change. Maybe letting them aquire "bardic music" abilities as feats.

Alternatively and level-dependant, make an equivalent to the Mystic Theurge that would allow advancement along sorcerer/bard lines.

john