[Mor's End] OOC: Questions and comments please post here
- Thread starter Krug
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jgbrowning
Hero
Re: Re: beggers
The closest one is unemployed, but that carries its own modern connotative baggage. Beggars are people who get the main part of their sustanence from begging. It can include those who are about 50/50 for labor/begging, but anyone that's over 50% into the labor area should be classified as someone else. We looked for other words, but beggar fit the best. Its often hard for most of us to imagine that many people not doing anything, but if you've ever been in a 3rd world country, its easier to picture.
Peasants wouldn't work very well as they're agrarian in nature. Peasant could work as a discriptor for the majority of the underclass as seen from the mid-upper class, but then peasant would include many different types of laborers who gain more than 50% of their sustanence from labor. Citizenship is usually reserved for those in guilds, so that's out as well.
joe b.
Krug said:
The closest one is unemployed, but that carries its own modern connotative baggage. Beggars are people who get the main part of their sustanence from begging. It can include those who are about 50/50 for labor/begging, but anyone that's over 50% into the labor area should be classified as someone else. We looked for other words, but beggar fit the best. Its often hard for most of us to imagine that many people not doing anything, but if you've ever been in a 3rd world country, its easier to picture.
Peasants wouldn't work very well as they're agrarian in nature. Peasant could work as a discriptor for the majority of the underclass as seen from the mid-upper class, but then peasant would include many different types of laborers who gain more than 50% of their sustanence from labor. Citizenship is usually reserved for those in guilds, so that's out as well.
joe b.
Actually, it's 1000 beggars, based on 1/7 of 7000 adults in Mor's End. The 1/7 comes from jgbrowning, via his "Magical Medieval Society" PDF.
Joe, in your research to come up with these incidence rates, what kind of range did you find for the "beggar" category? If 1000 "beggars" seems to much for people, would 500 be plausible for a city of this size?
Personally, I do like the 1000 number. We've already decide Mor's End a large slum area: the Squats. What kind of prefession do you think *those* people have?
Joe, in your research to come up with these incidence rates, what kind of range did you find for the "beggar" category? If 1000 "beggars" seems to much for people, would 500 be plausible for a city of this size?
Personally, I do like the 1000 number. We've already decide Mor's End a large slum area: the Squats. What kind of prefession do you think *those* people have?
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Lalato
Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: beggers
Hmmm... I don't think this number of "beggars" applies to Mor's End.
One of the "features" that we've decided for the region is that the local population is too small to truly support a city the size of Mor's End. That being the case... it means that every able-bodied person that doesn't have a "job" is probably out working the fields. There are still beggars... just not as many as the demographics would suggest.
--sam
Hmmm... I don't think this number of "beggars" applies to Mor's End.
One of the "features" that we've decided for the region is that the local population is too small to truly support a city the size of Mor's End. That being the case... it means that every able-bodied person that doesn't have a "job" is probably out working the fields. There are still beggars... just not as many as the demographics would suggest.
--sam
jgbrowning
Hero
Conaill said:
Here's a few excerpts from Cipolla...
**In 1330 Florence (pop. 90,000) a guy died w/o heirs and he gave 6 pennies to each poor person. He gave over 430 pounds in farthing, and they were in number more than 17,000 persons.
Late 1400's Antwerp had 12% of the pop as beggers, Louvain had 18% as beggers, and Hamburg had 20% as beggers.**
Determining the amount of beggars (basically most immigrants would fall into this or the laborer category) coming into Mor's End depends a lot upon the social structures outside the city within 30 or so miles. Does Mor's end provide the "a year in the city makes a person free of service obligation to the lord" option that many cities did? If so, there will be lots of incomers who simply want to leave what they view as a hopeless situation. Sure the city maybe just as hopeless, but they're not %100 certain as they are of the country.
joe b.
AH! So a "frontier" town which has much less of a "countryside" around it might have a lot less immigration, and thus many fewer beggars? I like *that* explanation a lot better.
Mind you, if we have very little immigration, that implies that the city itself has a positive growth rate, which I believe is unusual for a medieval city, right?
So what do you think might be the lowest number of beggars in such a city? A few hundred?
Mind you, if we have very little immigration, that implies that the city itself has a positive growth rate, which I believe is unusual for a medieval city, right?
So what do you think might be the lowest number of beggars in such a city? A few hundred?
Conaill says
I had taken it that the way the city manages to survive without massive food imports is the incredibly bountiful perch fishery combined with vast amounts of pasturage for sheep. I sort of imagine a gold rush style town with a rowdy atmosphere and a meat-centred diet, the local cereal crop mainly going for brewing. I think a 20% dwarven population would help to give a town such an atmosphere.
I had taken it that the way the city manages to survive without massive food imports is the incredibly bountiful perch fishery combined with vast amounts of pasturage for sheep. I sort of imagine a gold rush style town with a rowdy atmosphere and a meat-centred diet, the local cereal crop mainly going for brewing. I think a 20% dwarven population would help to give a town such an atmosphere.
Lalato
Adventurer
Currently, local foods include...
Fish, Sheep, Grains, Lake Kelp and other locally grown veggies.
Despite the local bounty, the city still has to import food. One of the reasons why immigration isn't as huge as it could be is because Mor's End is far enough away from other civilized areas that many people don't even attempt the trip.
How about this... immigrants must work in the service of the city for 2 years before they can do something else. Once they've completed their obligation, immigrants can take up whatever work they want. That two year service period includes working the fields, doing construction projects, and other "unskilled" labor. The people that live in The Squats are basically this immigrant workforce. Those that refuse to give 2 years of service are more than welcome to live outside the city walls... near the swamp.
--sam
Fish, Sheep, Grains, Lake Kelp and other locally grown veggies.
Despite the local bounty, the city still has to import food. One of the reasons why immigration isn't as huge as it could be is because Mor's End is far enough away from other civilized areas that many people don't even attempt the trip.
How about this... immigrants must work in the service of the city for 2 years before they can do something else. Once they've completed their obligation, immigrants can take up whatever work they want. That two year service period includes working the fields, doing construction projects, and other "unskilled" labor. The people that live in The Squats are basically this immigrant workforce. Those that refuse to give 2 years of service are more than welcome to live outside the city walls... near the swamp.
--sam
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jgbrowning
Hero
Lalato said:
Sounds interesting. One thing to try and remember however is that in a medievalesque world, authority doesn't come from a single source. The concept of "in the service to the city" would have to be extended to include in the service of the guilds, city council, lords... whatever are the powercenters. Even getting the power centers to agree on a two year period would be a major coup. Something like you suggest could be worked up, but to misquote myself, "As in all things magical medieval, complexity is almost perversly preffered."
One thing increasing the influx of beggers is the vast amounts of wealth that will be flowing out of Mor's End. If i'm remembering properly the city produces gems and silk. These products are going to attract the need for other luxuries which attracts the need for the support peoples that provide the supplies to those who supply luxuries. When the demand for these support peoples is high, those will no skills will try to work their way into that lowest group.
If Mor's End has a positive mortality rate (ie. more births than deaths within the city) it would be very unusual. Most cities had high mortality rates and only grew/sustained population due immigration.
And to finally answer the question, I'd say at least 700 beggars. Even the 1000 is a little on the conservative side. (I tried to keep to the lower end of the beggar %'s). Remember, people will look at the city and go, "There's wealth to be made there!" or "I'll be better off in the city then where I am now." And most of the time, they're wrong. But the primary rule is to have fun. If that amount of beggers isn't helping you do that, change it to suit what you want.
joe b.
Lalato
Adventurer
I hadn't really thought of guilds being affected by this ruling. What if guildmembers received a special exemption that removed them from such service to the city? Therefore, if a new immigrant was sponsored by a guild, she wouldn't have to serve the city. Instead, she would have to serve the guild.
As for the number of beggars... I think we can make any number work. In another thread, we're talking about including slavery in Mor's End. If so, this would also affect the number of beggars greatly.
I would prefer if the mortality rate in Mor's End was high. It makes sense for the area. It's frontier territory, and there are many dangerous creatures in the area. If it weren't for the plentiful natural resources, the city wouldn't have remained as long as it has.
--sam
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