Most frustrating quirk of 5E?

[3catcircus]

Except what you're describing is still leaps and bounds more complicated/more bookkeeping than I want to deal with.

I would think you could cut down on the bookkeeping by designing the mechanics such that the heavy lifting gets done *during* the character creation process rather than in-play.

 

[Maxperson]

Nah. Just saying "You can't do it indefinitely" is more than sufficient, unless you're planning to actually have a situation that requires the characters to fight for scores or hundreds of rounds in a row. In which case, you're already outside the expected bounds of the system.

It won't take scores of rounds in a row. Boxers fight for 3 minutes before needing to rest, and they have virtually no weight involved, and aren't fighting for their lives, which allows them to conserve energy and fart around with hugs and such to get some rest.

In deadly fight, with armor and weapons, the effects will be felt enough to impact fighting ability after a minute or so. And yes, I've seen larger fights go 10 rounds or more. So yes, I need rules.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It won't take scores of rounds in a row. Boxers fight for 3 minutes before needing to rest, and they have virtually no weight involved, and aren't fighting for their lives, which allows them to conserve energy and fart around with hugs and such to get some rest.

In deadly fight, with armor and weapons, the effects will be felt enough to impact fighting ability after a minute or so. And yes, I've seen larger fights go 10 rounds or more. So yes, I need rules.

That's only if your goal is to emulate real life. Up to this point, we've been talking about repetition-based exhaustion--whether from swinging a sword or casting a cantrip--in more general, abuse-frustrating "You can't keep this up forever" terms. Mimicking real life is a new criteria.

Sure, if you want to simulate real-world exhaustion, you need rules for it. But then you're also getting into the whole "how much of hit points are meat and how much are avoiding damage?" discussion, and applying two different mechanics--exhaustion and hit points--to the same issue. It's not anything the D&D system is, or has ever been, meant to handle, and it's a ripple effect of complexity that I honestly can't imagine being an improvement.

Plus, characters in D&D are already unlike real life people in most physical respects: movement speed, encumbrance, ability to take physical damage (even with hit points representing a combination of factors), etc. etc. And that's without even getting into the stuff that's supposed to be unnatural. Why are we looking for realistic exhaustion rules with characters that aren't--and cannot be--realistic?

Again, play how you like. I promise I won't call WotC to come to your house. But I, and I think most others, would be quite content with "You can't do the same thing for many minutes or hours on end," and leaving it there, even if that's not really in the ballpark of how long someone in the real world could do it.

 

[Oofta]

I think that the lack of effect from becoming increasingly wounded in D&D is something that most people take issue with (I know I joke about it). Many other games have some sort of damage track that imposes penalties as a character enters increasing categories of wounded. Handled poorly, this becomes the dreaded "death spiral" that raises ire amongst some players. A simplified version would work well as an option for D&D.

I don't think "most people" take issue with going from 1 HP to unconscious. It's become so ingrained in many games (including most video games) that people don't really question it. Or think about the vast majority of fights you see on TV/movies where two people wail on each other until one drops (or of course one person gets KO'd with one punch but never has a concussion). There might be some cosmetic differences or one of the fighters may shake their head to clear it but it's so rare to see effects of fighting that it really stands out when it does happen.

 

[Maxperson]

That's only if your goal is to emulate real life. Up to this point, we've been talking about repetition-based exhaustion--whether from swinging a sword or casting a cantrip--in more general, abuse-frustrating "You can't keep this up forever" terms. Mimicking real life is a new criteria.

I'm not trying to emulate real life. Just add a little realism. Realism is not all or nothing.

Sure, if you want to simulate real-world exhaustion, you need rules for it. But then you're also getting into the whole "how much of hit points are meat and how much are avoiding damage?" discussion, and applying two different mechanics--exhaustion and hit points--to the same issue. It's not anything the D&D system is, or has ever been, meant to handle, and it's a ripple effect of complexity that I honestly can't imagine being an improvement.

No. No we're not getting into hit points or any other aspect of the game, because realism vs. unrealism is not a dichotomy. I don't have to make everything in the game mirror reality just because I want combat to be a bit more realistic.

 

[Aridon]

"Interesting... curious about your results with these, if you are inclined to share.

Regarding 9, the 6-8, since it's just an expression of an estimation of how long a party can go without running low on resources and not a rule or even a recommendation/requirement for anyone's game to follow or strive to, it has not affected my game in the least even tho I never used it.
How did it affect yours? "

- We like a game that is more challenging, and more story driven i.e. less "superheroesque". Our experience was using 6 to 8 encounters made the story fade into the background and highlighted combat and not using it allowed the opportunity for characters to "nova" and take the challenge out of combat. We have struggled with this for years, having experimented with Gritty Realism, etc and not allowing long rests unless you were in a town (which . Now we have pulled back from Gritty realism and have implemented healing as described in #1.

"1.The overnight heal is just ridiculous. In fact, in our group we mockingly call it “moonbeam” healing and have home ruled it out of the game, replacing it with Con bonus +1, min 1 healing per night."

How was your game different after you made that change in actual play? What good or bad results came from the change? Did it add a whole extra day of healing to some of the the most heavy of battles (assuming spending half-HD and then healing spells) or not even that? "

- We just made the change a few sessions ago and so far the results have been satisfactory. This process has had the benefits we were looking for, which were making Clerics/healers important while keeping the challenge up in fights.

"2.Whack a mole healing in combat. Our group left that in, but added a level of exhaustion for each time a character is dropped to 0 HP."

"How was your game different after you made that change in actual play? - The intensity of someone going to 0 HP, and the desire to prevent it, increased dramatically because we do not have a way to remove exhaustion levels yet. This has made combat more engaging since the stakes are higher.

What good or bad results came from the change? Did this discourage pressing on once someone got an unlucky drop and drive towards more short workdays or did they fight on with exhaustion? Did it encourage leaving someone down and making saves as opposed to getting them up and risking another hit dropping them again producing a second level of exhaustion? "

- We have had deadlines in our adventures since implementing the exhaustion aspect to HP drops to prevent excessive resting and preventing the players from shortening the workday. To date, we always bring someone up when they go down because we implemented a -10 HP = death, no saves rule as well, (you stop at 0, then if hit again go into negative HP) so it is always better to have team members on their feet to keep the 0 HP stop in place and so they can either self heal or get the hell out of dodge and attack from range.

We have home ruled around the healing and resting mechanics because playing RAW didn't seem challenging enough without adding more combat into the adventure than we like, however, I realize these changes aren't for everyone. You also have to keep in mind that the group I play with started playing D&D with the Red Box basic set and has been playing together since about 1980 so we are pretty good at finding ways to overcome combat challenges without expending a lot of resources using environmental aspects of the combat setting to give ourselves an advantage over our foes.

 

[Blue]

The game system I think did skills better them most was Roll Master. It was level and class and skill based system.

I'm not familiar with Roll Master, can you give uneducated heathens like myself a quick intro to it's skill system?

 

[WaterRabbit]

I'm not familiar with Roll Master, can you give uneducated heathens like myself a quick intro to it's skill system?

It should be call "Table Master" and it was the most complicated and ridiculous RPG ever created. It started out as "Arms Law", "Spell Law", "Claw Law". It used a %dice system and literally every roll had to be looked up on a table. Crits and Fumbles were common in the system and created the silliest results possible.

I think it eventually morphed into the MERP system. You are better off using GURPS as it has much more detail without the complications and silliness of that system.

 

[Ganders]

There are some big things. For instance, resting. The need to explicitly choose the length of your rests and consciously call out at the beginning how long it will be... and the contradictory rules about interruptions. Also the complete heal every morning and the power disparities if rests aren't a specific frequency. Too gamey, it actively defies immersion. Come on already... encounter powers were nifty in 4e, but they shouldn't be allowed to do more harm than good.

Also, the idea of gaining a level almost every day, with no training... and level 1 to 20 in a couple of weeks. This is convenient for games at conventions, but gosh you lose more than you gain. So many games now have so little in the way of ongoing story and evolving campaigns, or even just evolving characters, as a direct result of this.

But sometimes it's the little things. Pixies should be able to speak common and elven, else how would they introduce themselves? The reclusive Sprites, on the other hand, should only speak sylvan. When I think of what it took for 5e to transpose these two, when every other edition kept it straight, it's rather discouraging.

 

[Yardiff]

I'm not familiar with Roll Master, can you give uneducated heathens like myself a quick intro to it's skill system?

The way the system works is the skill list is available to all characters, and its a big list. It includes weapons skills, magic skills, knowledge skills, etc. Classes give you a list of skills that cost less. Each levels give characters skill points to spend.


This way casters can buy armor skills but it will cost them a lot more then a fighter. Fighters can buy magic skills but will be expensive.


This good enough for a rough understanding?