Multi-property magic items

[CapnZapp]

Sorry for asking a question that's probably been discussed already, but what is the low-down on magic items with more than one property?

(As in official recommendations and DMG guidelines, not just the "do whatever you like, its your campaign" talk)

For example, could a Flaming Berserker Battleaxe +2 even exist?

As I'm imagining it, similar effects wouldn't stack, but they would complement each other. At least where negation wouldn't be the natural resolution.

Taking the Battleaxe as an example, the critical would be the highest of the two (Berserker and Flaming), meaning +2d10 in this case. The damage would be fire, rather than normal. All damage could be turned into fire, as per Flaming's At-Will power. As for the dailies, giving the weapon both would be the simplest solution. A paragon character could then use both dailies during the same milestone if he wanted. As one is a minor action and the other a free action, they could both be triggered in the same round.

But as I said, I can't find anything on this. Does that mean such weapons are actively discouraged, or merely that there's no rules on them yet. (Or possibly that I'm just blind, and there is a page reference waiting...)

How would such a weapon be priced? The sum of both weapons seems to be the more direct answer (i.e. 5000 + 5000 = 10000 gp for Berserker +2 and Flaming +2).

The reason why I'm asking is that this kind of multi-property weapon would be ideal for a Warlock's off-hand rod. As he's not using it to attack, having a high enchantment bonus is a waste of money. But adding a second, third or fourth property to it would seem to be a very very useful thing to do. The main-hand rod could then be a straight magic rod, where all the money goes to the plus bonus.

Again, if this has come up before, feel free to answer with a link only. Thanks!

 

[Revinor]

Whatever is the system, you could probably misuse it heavily. There are some properties for which real cost is only fact that they use given item slot. By allowing multiple of them, you are effectively giving more slots to the player (and this is about most important slots, weapon/implement and armor).

For example,

Shimmering, Veteran's, Stoneskin, Melioriating, Immunizing Cloth armor +1 is a clear win against any one of those abilities with +2 bonus.

Or Corruption, Reaving, Bloodcurse, Vicious Rod +1 ?

For me, it is a blank no against unlimited mixing of abilities. If you really need it, create another type of magic, which combines whatever you want and try to 'price' it against other items of same plus. If you go into next plus area, this means items is too powerful and has to be an artifact.

 

[Gruns]

I've been playing around with this idea to create unique items for a while now. The formula I use sounds tricky and confusing at first, but it's really pretty simple.
In a nutshell, I take the + value of each property and add them together, and then add the base value. Like I said, sounds confusing but it's all explained below.
Base values are easy enough to get:
+1 = Lvl 1
+2 = Lvl 6
+3 = Lvl 11
+4 = Lvl 16
+5 = Lvl 21
+6 = Lvl 26
And to find the + value of the property, simply subract the base level (according to enhancement bonus) from the item's level.
For example, we'll use your Flaming Berserker Battleaxe +2.
A normal +2 Flaming weapon is level 10. Subtract 6(the base level of a generic +2 weapon) from 10 and you get that the Flaming property is worth 4 levels.
A normal +2 Berserker weapon is also level 10, so another 4 levels.
Add the Flaming and Berserker properties to get 8 levels, and then add the original base of lvl 6 for a +2 weapon, and you get a Lvl 14 item. So 21,000gp.
The weapon gets all properties of both weapons. If there's a conflicting issue such as damage die size on crits, pick the WORST of the two. This has to be done because some powers are priced at 0 levels, but they have no extra damage on a crit.
The benefit is obviously having multiple properties on a single weapon. The downside is that the weapon is slightly underpowered as far as To Hit and Damage goes, when compared to a normal lvl 14 weapon.
Some other things to keep in mind: some properties require a minimum base level to be applied. This shouldn't change. And of course, you can only add properties to a weapon if the property is allowed on that type of weapon. (So no Vorpal Warhammers.) Also, when I make these weapons, I do so with the intent that they'll be used as actual weapons. It sounds like you're trying to cheese into some kind of deal where you only pick properties that provide "always on" static effects that don't really care about the item's enhancement value. (I'm looking at you, Rod of Reaving). This ignores the trade off of the weapon being slightly less effective as a weapon, since it will never be used as a weapon. As DM I control all of the "special" rulebreaking stuff that enters my game, and I would NEVER put something like this in the game, nor could it be bought or made. It's obviously unbalanced, since you're effectively gaining item slots at the cost of nothing.
Also, this should very much be the exception and not the norm. Only special "named" weapons get this treatment. I spiffed up the named longsword Aecris from KotS this way, for example. And the paladin who claimed it, promptly died the next session.
Those are my thoughts on the issue...
Later!
Gruns

 

[CapnZapp]

For me, it is a blank no against unlimited mixing of abilities. If you really need it, create another type of magic, which combines whatever you want and try to 'price' it against other items of same plus. If you go into next plus area, this means items is too powerful and has to be an artifact.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's probably abusive to allow free mixing of properties.

But never allowing more than one property to be added to a single item seems awfully restrictive.

For the purposes of this discussion, then, feel free to assume you can't make these babies using Enchant Magic Item.
Meaning only the DM (or special-purpose rituals) can make them.

Now, to your reply. Must confess I didn't understand the last part of it (quoted). What other type of magic are you referring to? And what does going into the next plus area mean? Could you give an example?

Thanks,
Zapp

 

[CapnZapp]

First off, I guess these replies mean that the official answer is "no, there are no rules for these kinds of items anywhere in the RAW. You're on your own." Right?


Gruns, thanks for your reply. Your pricing idea makes mucho sense. Not sure I got the rationale for using the worst crit die size though. (You're probably right though, using the weaker of any similar power is probably a good guideline to avoid abuse. It's possibly not as fun though.)

Going forward with this, has anybody considered 3E:ish ideas? Such as having each additional property cost double? To account for the fact that you are indeed getting yourself extra slots?

"Cost quintuple" would have meant +5 levels, so to make it easy, I'll simply assume the easiest 4E approximation to "double" is "add one to the level". In other words, you'll add one level for each additional property on top of the cost you arrived at.

The cost of the Flaming Berserker Battleaxe +2 would then be 6+4+4+1=15, or 25000 gp.

Let's take a Rod as an additional example, as that might be more abusive in general than a weapon. It's an item where the slot saving is the main prize.

A Rod of Reaving and Dark Reward +1
Lowest level: 5
Implement (Rod)
Enhancement: Attack rolls and Damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 (not +1d8)
Property: When you place your Warlock's Curse on a enemy target, the creature takes 1 point of damage and you gain a +1 power bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
Cost: Reaving +1 adds four levels to the base for +1 items, Dark Reward +1 adds one. Then we'll add one extra level for each property beyond the first, and add in the base level for +1 items. The result is 1+4+1+1=7, or 2600 gp.

Thoughts? Are we getting somewhere here or is this just a trap to wreck my campaign?

 

[Gruns]

Lowest Crit Mod

First off, I guess these replies mean that the official answer is "no, there are no rules for these kinds of items anywhere in the RAW. You're on your own." Right?

As of now, mostly. The DMG has some sample Artifacts starting on page 164. There are some guidelines on how they work and whatnot, but those aren't everyday magic items.

Gruns, thanks for your reply. Your pricing idea makes mucho sense. Not sure I got the rationale for using the worst crit die size though. (You're probably right though, using the weaker of any similar power is probably a good guideline to avoid abuse. It's possibly not as fun though.)

As for the suckiest crit die, the reason you more or less have to do this is because some properties, for example, Battering, cost 0 levels. This means a +3 Battering Weapon costs the exact same as a plain vanilla +3 Magic Weapon. The tradeoff is that unlike the plain +3 Magic Weapon that deals an extra 3d6 on a crit, Battering Weapons do zilch on a crit. If you don't use the worst crit die, then you can just throw Battering, Blacksmelt, Distance, and other properties onto a weapon for the same price as NOT putting these properties on. Of course if you don't allow them to enter the game other then through DM intervention, then I suppose you have some wiggle room for the sake of fun.

Going forward with this, has anybody considered 3E:ish ideas? Such as having each additional property cost double? To account for the fact that you are indeed getting yourself extra slots?

"Cost quintuple" would have meant +5 levels, so to make it easy, I'll simply assume the easiest 4E approximation to "double" is "add one to the level". In other words, you'll add one level for each additional property on top of the cost you arrived at.

The cost of the Flaming Berserker Battleaxe +2 would then be 6+4+4+1=15, or 25000 gp.

Let's take a Rod as an additional example, as that might be more abusive in general than a weapon. It's an item where the slot saving is the main prize.

A Rod of Reaving and Dark Reward +1
Lowest level: 5
Implement (Rod)
Enhancement: Attack rolls and Damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 (not +1d8)
Property: When you place your Warlock's Curse on a enemy target, the creature takes 1 point of damage and you gain a +1 power bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
Cost: Reaving +1 adds four levels to the base for +1 items, Dark Reward +1 adds one. Then we'll add one extra level for each property beyond the first, and add in the base level for +1 items. The result is 1+4+1+1=7, or 2600 gp.

I don't think the extra level is needed. In fact, it probably makes the typical weapon too undesirable to consider using. And by typical, I mean something like Frostburn: The Sword of Fire and Ice. A +1 Flaming/Frost Longsword. (At will: Free Action. All damage dealt by this weapon is Fire and Cold damage. Another Free Action returns the damage to Normal.) And both of the Daily power options if you hit. As it is, this would be a level 7 item. Is it worth being +1 behind pace for the minor benefit of probably being able to beat Fire and Cold resistance? Iffy. Adding another "extra" level to the cost only makes it worse.

Thoughts? Are we getting somewhere here or is this just a trap to wreck my campaign?

If your intent is to just make weapons that you don't intend to use as weapons, then yeah, I'm sure it's a bad idea. In fact, I wouldn't let someone "dual-wield" Implements in the way you mentioned in the original post. You can carry two different Rods if you'd like, but you choose which one is going to be umm.. implementing your magic for this particular use of a power. Do you use your plain vanilla +3 Magic Rod, or do you want to try to get a little zing and use your +1 Rod of Multiple Hotness, knowing that you're going to miss about 10% more often. if you use the +3, the Rod of Multiple Hotness remains blissfully ignorant of the situation and adds nothing to the result.
Like I said, I like the idea of weapons with multiple properties, so long as their used the way they're supposed to be used. And they're of course flavorful. Even better if it takes an adventure or two to find them. Not too keen on just looking for ways to "powergame" or min/max.
Later!
Gruns

 

[CapnZapp]

Again, thanks!

If your intent is to just make weapons that you don't intend to use as weapons, then yeah, I'm sure it's a bad idea. In fact, I wouldn't let someone "dual-wield" Implements in the way you mentioned in the original post. You can carry two different Rods if you'd like, but you choose which one is going to be umm.. implementing your magic for this particular use of a power. Do you use your plain vanilla +3 Magic Rod, or do you want to try to get a little zing and use your +1 Rod of Multiple Hotness, knowing that you're going to miss about 10% more often. if you use the +3, the Rod of Multiple Hotness remains blissfully ignorant of the situation and adds nothing to the result.

This would be a house-rule, right? Per the RAW today, if you use the +3, the Rod of Singular Hotness is perfectly aware of the situation, triggering everytime you the wielder causes the right circumstances to come about, even if you do so through the other rod, the +3 one?

That doesn't mean I don't understand your point, though...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The only way I would allow stuff like this in was through Artifacts. Artifacts are much easier to control, and usually have some sort of a drawback or condition that you must satisfy. They also eventually go away, which is great if the thing turns out to be too powerful.

Also, while I understand that there was some ruling about holding a second implement and getting it's properties, isn't that enough in and of itself? This was probably an attempt to balance implements with things like a TWF Ranger wearing Bracers and wielding two magic weapons. If so, it was a big mistake by WotC...

Other classes don't really get the benefit of using a non-weapon in the offhand to add to their attacks. My Sword and Board Fighter, for example, can't use a Spiked Shield and add the enchantment to attacks with main-hand weapon. It just doesn't work that way. I either have to chose which item I'm attacking with, use powers like Dual Strike that allow for two attacks, or I would just need to use a regular shield with defensive enchantments on it. Suddenly giving the Arcane classes the ability to wield two implements with multiple property enchantments and then add them all into a single attack is just asking to be ridiculously broken. It's also bound to piss other people off who will want something similar...

Try explaining to the Fighter why he can't have 3 sets of Summoned Armor combined with another effect so that at the start of a battle he can pick what kind of armor he's going to wear. "Oh, fire enemies? And Undead? I'll have to summon my Blackiron armor", or "What? A Blue Dragon? Thank goodness I can also summon up my Blue Dragonscale armor!". Or why can't he have a Battlecrazed/Bloodthirsty Sword (Bloodcrazed? Battlethirsty?) so that he does more damage when he's bloodied and more damage on bloodied opponents?

My Fighter, for example, never made the switch to Battlerager or Tempest. So I still have that +1 from Fighter Weapon Talent. That +1 is enough to offset having a magic item that's one "plus" behind the others, as long as I got cool properties for it...it's a no-brainer! Which is why it's a problem...magic items should be forcing you to choose between them. Giving them the ability to combine them just makes them too easy to abuse since everything was balanced with the idea of only having one property per item.

 

[CapnZapp]

My dear Doctor, a simple "no" would suffice. ;-)

This isn't supposed to be a thread about how Flaming Berserk Axes should be allowed, or anything.

It is (primarily) a thread asking where these rather obvious (if I may say so) combos fit in 4E, and (secondarily) a place to collect musings on how to allow it anyway...

Combining two properties into one item feels like a natural thing to do, and the answer "it isn't balanced and can't be done" can feel a little bit... unsatisfying... I guess. That doesn't mean I don't see the balancing issues.

It would be nice with a general rule that allowed their existence, even if not their creation. Making these items into full-blown artifacts (with all that rules baggage) seems a tad over-blown, however.

Just my 2 cents,
Zapp

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem is with some properties, it isn't additive when you combine weapon properties. You end up with something a lot more powerful than the sum of its parts. For example, making a weapon Lightning/Frosting isn't the same level of power. You get access to two daily powers, and being able to make your attacks Lightning/Cold (really hard to resist) while benefiting from any and all feats you took for them at the same time is a -lot- more than simply 'Add a couple levels to it.'

This is to say it isn't possible, but you might have to tier shift such a weapon. Improvements on properties are certainly possible, but generally you have to be higher tier to enjoy them.

After all, Vorpal is just Vicious with a couple extra properties. But, the former is Epic Tier all the way, and the latter is a level 2 item.

Consider that.