Multiple Magical Crafters?

[RUMBLETiGER]

The mechanics for crafting magical items seem to assume a solitary crafter.

Is there Any RAW on what would happen if more than one magical crafter worked on the same item?

Lets take a Decanter of Endless Water. at 9000gp, that's exactly 9 days of crafting, 360 xp, and 4,500gp in materials. Prereq. of caster level 9.

Obviously someone else could contribute the gp equivalence of materials if they so desired. I know someone else can contribute the spell.

But what if we had a Level 9 Wizard and a Level 9 Artificer and a level 9 Cleric, each with the Craft Wondrous Item feat? Could they work on the Decanter at the same time, three guys around a table in the magical workshop, and therefore speed up the process? Could they alternate 8 hour shifts each working on it one at a time, covering three "days" worth of work in 24 hours? Could they split the xp contributed?

If there is not RAW on this, how would you rule? What would happen if a team of 4 Artificers wanted to go into business making expensive Constructs for high paying clients? Surely 4 professionals should pump out a single Shield Guardian faster than one (120 days!). Or could they? Would you figure that 2 crafters would get the work done in exactly half the time, or would the addition of each crafter reduce the time by, lets say, 10% each person? Gnomes must work together to do this sort of thing, right?

 

[James the Newbie]

The rules say that the person using the feat pays the XP cost. And that others can contribute to it.

From this I would personally asume this means that only one person can (Under normal circumstances) pay the XP cost, and that as a result only when the person who is being drained of their energy is there, can the item progress.

On a more real scope, lets take the idea of a group of three people working on a sword, one crafting the blade, one the hilt, and one the guard. Now it is entirely possible for people who have planned to build something together to do this, and not only that, but to do it faster. However, if people who are used to doing things a different way, come together, the components they make may not be as compatible, and what your working with is three different parts that don't quite slot together.

Taking on board my assumption from the rules as I intemperate them (I don't mind if you disagree, or have something that goes against it) and the example of three people working together to create something, and the problems they encounter, I'd rule that without some kind of teamwork feat (maybe one with leadership, maybe a new feat is in order) and without someone being drained of the correct fraction of the experience while they work on it, which I don't think the creators intended, and without the correct portion (based on percentages) being taken from you if you do rule that it is acceptable, that it is not possible.

I think there should be rules to support it based on feats and split experience, but it should not be the norm. I know there are specific feats for casting spells along side another caster, so the same being the case for item crafting seems to fit to me.

 

[Trouvere]

Magic Item Compendium, p. 232: 'It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites' and 'The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.'

I don't think there is any RAW way to include shift workers, though.

 

[Jack Simth]

Magic Item Compendium, p. 232: 'It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites' and 'The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.'

Huh, that's a change. Prior to the MIC, It Was:

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

- no requirement for the person designated as The Creator to have the specific item creation feat - just to meet a requirement for the item (so a Wizard with Scribe Scroll could work with a Cleric without to make a Divine scroll of Cure Light Wounds with the Cleric as the creator). MIC nixed that? Interesting.

 

[Loonook]

If there is not RAW on this, how would you rule? What would happen if a team of 4 Artificers wanted to go into business making expensive Constructs for high paying clients? Surely 4 professionals should pump out a single Shield Guardian faster than one (120 days!). Or could they? Would you figure that 2 crafters would get the work done in exactly half the time, or would the addition of each crafter reduce the time by, lets say, 10% each person? Gnomes must work together to do this sort of thing, right?

First, getting 3 9th level casters of opposing spheres of influence together is an interesting proposition... And worth looking into just for sheer cheek. However, reducing costs for production and time required would seem to not make sense personally, and I'll explain why.

To me, personally, magic items take the time they take to make as both a balance and a flavor issue. Frankenstein's Monster had to have its constituent parts traced, and Judah Loew ben Bezalel's own golem of Prague was built and actually 'grew' into its size over time. Similar legends of the golem of Gaon R. Eliyahu Ba’al Shem have the clay golem growing over time to the point that it could have grown to eat the Earth itself. So, in our own scant lore on man-made men there is a case for a maturation or need to seek very specific materials.

Alexander Irvine makes a case for golem mass-manufacture in his novel [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Narrows-Alexander-C-Irvine/dp/0345466985"]The Narrows[/ame], but even there the rabbis could not just rush production due to stringent requirements of faith in materials (metal within the unfinished Golem could make the creature into a killing machine without any care for who it killed) and the time to say prayers and weave spells into the clay.

There is also a certain amount to be said of manufacture of talismans and other blessed relics in various faiths and mystic traditions. Even when mass-manufactured the items must be blessed or have incantations spoken over them, with some specific items requiring aging of the components to take full effect. Think of it as mystic viniculture if you must; no golem is sent out before its time .

Eberron created the Cannith Forge for Warforged production, which serves to stamp out the materials and life needed to created a mechanical man. If you believe that the mystic sigils and energy can be CNC'd into your materials you could have a point. However, the questions to answer are whether the XP being applied is representing a raw 'dump' of power into the Golem or magic item, or whether it is akin to scribing a scroll?

Personally? I see the magic of the golem being in its trapping of the elemental spirit that drives the beast. So the real work is creating a system that allows for the elemental to be properly contained within the framework of the golem. Lots of complex inscribing, laying down of specific mantras and magic circles in the appropriate shapes to make the containment work. And then because of the nature of flesh and clay Golems made up of the material will, through their movement or shifting, break one of these seals and cause the Golem to go Berserk. Iron or other metallics? Not so much.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

First, getting 3 9th level casters of opposing spheres of influence together is an interesting proposition... And worth looking into just for sheer cheek.

I'm assuming that the 2 scenarios in which this would occur would be a group of professionals getting together to do this for a business, in which case they'd develop the ability to work together.
The second scenario would be a party of adventurers, although of very different disciplines, having developed a veteran relationship of teamwork and cooperation.

Taking on board my assumption from the rules as I intemperate them (I don't mind if you disagree, or have something that goes against it) and the example of three people working together to create something, and the problems they encounter, I'd rule that without some kind of teamwork feat (maybe one with leadership, maybe a new feat is in order) and without someone being drained of the correct fraction of the experience while they work on it, which I don't think the creators intended, and without the correct portion (based on percentages) being taken from you if you do rule that it is acceptable, that it is not possible.

I see this as a reasonable way to go, require a teamwork benefit or mutually taken feat that represents their ability to work together.

However, reducing costs for production and time required would seem to not make sense personally, and I'll explain why.

To me, personally, magic items take the time they take to make as both a balance and a flavor issue. Frankenstein's Monster...

I think I hear what you're saying. The complexities behind a Golem might be outside the bounds of hurrying, and difficult for more than one individual to track all the necessary details. I could buy that argument.
What about a +1 Flaming Shortsword, or Slippers of Spider Climbing? Perhaps place a gold piece cap on what sort of item might be simple enough to be passed around?

Magic Item Compendium, p. 232: 'It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites' and 'The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.'

I don't think there is any RAW way to include shift workers, though.

I always get nervous when approaching something like homebrew, and so as much RAW input I can find is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Loonook]

I'm assuming that the 2 scenarios in which this would occur would be a group of professionals getting together to do this for a business, in which case they'd develop the ability to work together.
The second scenario would be a party of adventurers, although of very different disciplines, having developed a veteran relationship of teamwork and cooperation.

I see this as a reasonable way to go, require a teamwork benefit or mutually taken feat that represents their ability to work together.

I think I hear what you're saying. The complexities behind a Golem might be outside the bounds of hurrying, and difficult for more than one individual to track all the necessary details. I could buy that argument.
What about a +1 Flaming Shortsword, or Slippers of Spider Climbing? Perhaps place a gold piece cap on what sort of item might be simple enough to be passed around?

I would say that I could see an 'assistant' applying the enhancement bonus as a 'blank' magical sword, or assisting in adding on the specific enhancement abilities. Perhaps your lead 21st level mage is able to enchant the weapon to +4, while the 9th level Cleric Cleric makes with the Holy power on the weapon.

I would require that both parties make a Craft or Spellcraft check to see if they enhance each other's work each day. This check would be a number you're going to have to figure out on your own, but I would put it at something akin to making a complex item (DC: 20) with a +X modifier per enhancement bonus to maintain symmetry (I would put it at +2 personally, though I need to run numbers to see if that would work.

I would allow for the specific pieces of the weapon to be built separately, with the application of the highest cost for the enhancements going to the leader. So let us take our fictional +6 weapon above. It costs 72k to enhance, with the +4 enhancement (32k) and the Holy (extra +2, so 40k). Even though the Holy is being applied by the Cleric, the main Mage takes the higher cost into effect for determining the time to make the weapon. Your Mage makes a Spellcraft check (DC: 28) to maintain the flows and make sure everything works together; your second Cleric makes a Spellcraft (DC: 24) for their work. I would also allow for apprentices to 'aid' the Spellcraft checks of either individual as they keep the notes, mark down where everyone stops, etc.

Overall the weapon would be sped up to 40+ days of crafting (40 minimum with no failures). Now with other bonuses you may get to a point where, due to the dodgy math of crafting, the times will crash down... And you'll need to determine these separately. And your lead caster takes the XP brunt for the whole creation.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Trouvere]

When you look at the blatant contradiction between the MIC rules I quoted and the SRD rules that Jack did, I wonder whether WotC's right hand ever knew what its left hand was doing.

I much prefer the SRD version. In fact, when I played in the now sadly moribund Living Enworld, we used a cludged together system with craft points, in which participants could contribute XP equally, regardless of feat possession.

 

[Loonook]

When you look at the blatant contradiction between the MIC rules I quoted and the SRD rules that Jack did, I wonder whether WotC's right hand ever knew what its left hand was doing.

I much prefer the SRD version. In fact, when I played in the now sadly moribund Living Enworld, we used a cludged together system with craft points, in which participants could contribute XP equally, regardless of feat possession.

SRD didn't always get updated... In comparison the Genesis spell still lets you screw around with the Time Element of the Plane while the Psionic Power has the corrected version. Plenty of things never updated .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[jefgorbach]

Magic Item Compendium, p. 232: 'It's perfectly acceptable for two or more characters to work together to create a magic item, with each character supplying some of the prerequisites' and 'The XP cost must always be paid by the character who supplies the item creation feat required by the item, no matter how many other characters cooperate in its creation.'

I don't think there is any RAW way to include shift workers, though.

Seems "obvious".
RAW: "Combining Skill Attempts - When more than one character tries the same skill at the same time and for the same purpose, their efforts may overlap." Therefore whomever has the highest relevant skill makes the corresponding roll with a +2 modifier for each helper making the same skill check at DC10 (per Aid Another) to see if the team's effort successfully completed the item or not.

Since RAW doesn't mention how this affects the required time, personally I divide the total time required by the number of people involved, presuming they either worked in shifts or could assemble modular components (hilt, blade, gems, sharpening, etc) and do the same for the XP Costs since RAW says whomever provided the required feat(s) pays the relevant XP costs.