OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

[Retreater]

My issue isn't necessarily that 5e is "too easy" - I can ramp up the difficulty when needed. It's the "fiddly bits" that are stumbling blocks to my old school players and trying to simplify/streamline the experience (especially when we're playing online).
[Specific "fiddly bits" are initiative, bonus actions, skills. I don't think any of those things necessarily add anything to the quick play style I'm looking for.]

 

[Monayuris]

I am running a game in Swords and Wizardry and playing in a game in Old School Essentials, both games in the OSR movement. A common feature in both is "things are really hard."

In S&W if the party's magic-user wins Initiative, he can cast Sleep and pretty much take out an entire small dungeon complex. If he loses Initiative, an enemy spellcaster can do the exact same thing - or otherwise the group is surrounded and chopped down pretty quickly.

Our OSE game is a dungeon crawl that sees us make (literally) 40 feet of progress in the dungeon each weekly session before needing to turn back after facing impossible odds. The previous session was stirges we couldn't scare off with torches that killed two party members; this week was three lizardmen who were in a barbaric rage that we couldn't sneak past or reason with.

This isn't the style of game I remember playing back in the 80s and 90s. If it was like this, we'd have never made it to 2nd level.

What gives now? Is the entire OSR movement just for bragging rights for grognards? Is there some in-between system (between OSR and 5e) that is rules-lite, fun, and fast-paced?

Absolutely not. Although, it may seem that way...

Old school games tend towards the more deadly when you look at the character death and dying mechanics. And the OSR movement is an effort to play the games as written in the style of the original as it was played back in the day.

Even then, OSR games are not nearly the meat-grinder death grinds as they tend to be treated. Especially, if you use the full rules of old school games (this is from a B/X point of view, which is my preferred OSR game... I'm not super familiar with Swords & Wizardry).

Reactions: Although the DM can always choose the reactions of monsters, most versions of old school D&D provide some sort of Monster Reaction table that determines the monster outlook. In B/X, for example, the table is a 2d6 roll with 5 results. Only on a result of a 2 does a result of Immediate Attack occurs (less than 3% of the time). Every other result allows players to decide to avoid combat.

Morale: Most versions of old school D&D also have a Morale rule. In B/X (again my most familiar old school ruleset), Morale is tested on the first death of a combatant and when half the number are slain. Each creature has a Morale score and on a failure the monster will flee. This allows combat to not always be to the death. A player group has the opportunity to break their opponent's morale and possibly prevent a tpk.

I think a lot of the deadliness of old school is attributed to DMs not using all the rules and making every dungeon a combat filled cage death match. Use the rules of the game, such as Reactions and Morale, and the game becomes not only dramatically less lethal but also dramatically more interesting.

 

[DemoMonkey]

"Not always an issue but a calous disregard for the lives of those you employ is the fast track to evil alignment for many DM's."

As I recall from those ancient days before the continents drifted apart*, when the mortality rate of 1st level PCs was 50 to 80%, expecting a 50 to 80% mortality rate in your hirelings didn't seem evil.

Brutal perhaps. But not Evil.





...
*I blame Yoko.

 

[Andras]

In a 1e party, you need to have your elves and rangers sneaking along to surprise monsters 1-3 or 1-4 on the d6. Then the rest of you pile on in the surprise segments.

 

[Monayuris]

There are a number of ways to decrease the deadliness of OSR games.

Hirelings & retainers:

The players can hire retainers and henchpeople to round out their group. They will likely siphon some XP away, but having a couple extra fighters in the party can improve survivability of the whole. You need them less and less as you gain levels, but at the early levels they are invaluable.

Poison:

You can house rule poisons to not be save or die. I think a house rule used in Basic Fantasy is to have poison do 1d6 damage per Turn for 6 Turns. It will likely still kill a character, but time and a little luck may allow a character to survive. At the very least, you can continue to play your character through much of the session.

Start at 3rd level or so:

Once you get past level 2 or so, you become much more survivable. Monster damage tends to stay in the 1d4 to 1d8 range. It is more common for higher level monsters to have multiple attacks at lower damage expressions as opposed to higher damage (gargoyles, for example are 4 attacks at 1d3, 1d3, 1d4 and 1d6... average of 10 hp if they all hit). So, you can withstand more attacks with a few more hit dice. Increased capability and access to more spells also helps.

Start with 3 hit dice:

A rule, I considered is to have each player start with 3 hit dice worth of hit points. At each level, have them roll their total hit dice and only increase the total if the roll is greater. For example, have a fighter start with 3d8 hp.

Say, this gives the fighter 14 hit points.
At second level have the fighter roll 2d8, if they roll 14 or less, they keep 14, if they roll 15 or 16 they use that total.
At third level have the fighter roll 3d8, if they roll the level 2 total or less they keep that total, if they roll greater, they use the new total.

This gives early characters some extra hit points while keeping hit point totals in line as they level.

 

[Mercurius]

TSR D&D--especially 1E AD&D--had a bunch of things that, by today's standards, made the game more deadly, especially at low levels. For instance, magic-user HP (d4 at 1st level), certain undead draining levels, no healing surges or HD, no death saves, etc. A lot of groups bypassed this stuff, or house-ruled it out.

"Old school" isn't really a specifically defined thing, but includes a bunch of qualities, all of which are part of D&D today, but the OSR just emphasizes them more, and excludes a lot of newer stuff that came out through WotC and other more recent influences: Warcraft, anime, etc.

Any version of D&D is ultimately malleable. Some, like myself, prefer the 5E rules set, but use OSR(esque) stuff for inspiration and adventuring. Others are diehard "OSR or die" types, who won't touch anything published by WotC.

There's also the cultural aspect of the OSR which, quite frankly, tends towards machismo. I only mention this because such folks tend to like a more survivalist play-style. But this isn't intrinsic--or at least inviolable--in playing an "old school flavored" game. One could play 5E in the Wilderlands or Hyboria, focus on hexcrawling and minimize world-shaking events.

I think, also, that there's a strong correlation between:
OSR and sword & sorcery fantasy
New school (WotC D&D) and epic fantasy

Sword & sorcery fantasy was the dominant mode, at least of commercial fantasy, until Tolkien came along, and gradually petered out, especially with the rise of genre fantasy in the late 70s and 80s, but existed as a kind of secondary stream, morphing into (or giving birth to) grimdark in the late 90s and early 00s with George RR Martin and his "children": Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, etc.

Gary Gygax is to the OSR somewhat what Robert E Howard is to contemporary grimdark. They aren't the same thing, but the latter are in the "spirit of" the progenitor. But there are different ways that this spirit can be honored, and different degrees that it can be incorporated into a campaign.

 

[Oofta]

I ask the other question: must death be unheard of in 5e?

I would like some middle ground but don’t know the best rules for that (that could be used with 5e that is).

Focus fire, exploit weaknesses and double tap. So grapple that wizard, put a sack over their head (amazing how many spells require sight) and drag them off screaming. Target the fighter in plate with every dex save effect you have or just dominate them to take out the rogue. I will agree that it's tougher after 10th level or so, but that's what tarrasques are for. If one tarrasque is not enough, that's what the mob rules are for. If the PCs all fly, that's what the half dragon template is for.

I regularly find myself pulling back with my current group because they don't want a high body count.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Focus fire, exploit weaknesses and double tap. So grapple that wizard, put a sack over their head (amazing how many spells require sight) and drag them off screaming. Target the fighter in plate with every dex save effect you have or just dominate them to take out the rogue. I will agree that it's tougher after 10th level or so, but that's what tarrasques are for. If one tarrasque is not enough, that's what the mob rules are for. If the PCs all fly, that's what the half dragon template is for.

I regularly find myself pulling back with my current group because they don't want a high body count.

Damn that makes me want to play! As a player and dm!

I like the gritty shoving and grappling and all that...

 

[Oofta]

Damn that makes me want to play! As a player and dm!

I like the gritty shoving and grappling and all that...

What's funny is that people get more freaked out when I have the bad guys start dragging off people instead of just killing them outright. Probably something to do with that NPC hireling that was eaten alive.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

What's funny is that people get more freaked out when I have the bad guys start dragging off people instead of just killing them outright. Probably something to do with that NPC hireling that was eaten alive.

Holy Moses! Yeah that is actually scary!

we were fighting ghouls and I guarantee when we were getting dragged off it makes you squirm, make believe or not!

which means good entertainment...