My fighter always gets battered-am I "normal"?

One other thing I wanted to comment on... your equipment value levels do seem a bit low. The group I was with didn't have a lot of trouble here when we played. Just look around - not all treasure and valuable items are golden. Get yourself a portable hole and make sure you take anything and everything that isn't nailed down with you. The guards with the masterwork banded mail and masterwork bastard swords in particular we particularly welcomed running into. Even looking at 50% value for reselling these items, the guards were well worth the time spent dispatching them, particularly when we were lower levels. The trick is to be doing this the entire time you are exploring. It ratchets up the value of gear you end up with by a considerable margin.
 

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If you take lots of damage, don't sweat it. Our fighter type PCs typically need Heal spells after every fight, if we don't require one in the middle. Big tough monsters and enemy fighters will hit you - AC reduces their chance for MULTIPLE hits or made power attack damage. Offense increases more in 3rd than it did in prior editions.
 

Yes, with standard equipment and feats, a fighter can go from fully healthy one moment to dire need of healing the very next round. It's even more likely if said fighter is the only melee combatant, since then the melee brutes (dragons, golems, etc.) can focus their entire attack routine on a single PC.

I'd suggest one or two of you guys consider Leadership, and pick up cohorts built around survivability. (Dwarf, 20 con to start, +con item, Improved Toughness, Dwarven Defender PrC, for instance.) If there are two or three melee combatants together, they'll all be more survivable, since none of them will be taking the brunt of the assault alone.

Or, to get a similar result, ask the wizard to start summoning a lot. Anything to suck away those melee attacks.
 

Summoning spells would be a very good idea. Even lowly SM III has the celestial bison, after all. (They make excellent meat shields...check out the hp and DR.)
 

kigmatzomat said:
IMC campaign the fighter ranks his injuries in "bard's worths." E.g. "I've lost two bard's worth of blood, can I get some clerical lovin', please?!?"


LOL!!! :D :D :D :D

I just couldn't stop laughing after reading this! Just too funny!
 

Nail said:
Interesting Thread!

You've got an ECL 12 "dwarven fighter", eh? Let's look at your equipment:
  • Mithral Full Plate +2 (14,500gp),
  • Animated Tower shield +1 (9,180gp),
  • Waraxe +1 (2350gp),
  • girdle of giant strength +4 (16,000gp),
  • cloak of resist+1 (1,000gp),
  • brooch of shielding (1,500gp),
  • 3 potions cure light wounds (150gp),
  • mace+1 (2312gp),
  • composite bow (+4 str) (800gp),
  • about 480gp in loose change.

Total of 48,272 gp.

.....and are you aware that a 12th level PC should have, at a minimum, 88,000gp of wealth? :) Your wealth level is a lot closer to that of a 10th level PC. .....And to further penalize you, your party has only 3 PCs. Ouch. :]

Another question: Do you follow RAW and take the attack penalties from the animated tower shield?

Well, I WAS thinking we would have more wealth than we do, especially only having 3 characters to divide the loot amongst. Another 40000 would allow me to up my AC by 7 if I bought a natural armour amulet+2, ring of pro +2, and got "upgrades" to the armour and shield of +2 and +1 respectively (8000+8000+12000+7000). I think that WOULD make a difference. However, no use crying over a cracked anvil as we have what we have.

Oh, yes, the DM allows me to ignore the Tower shield penalty now that its animated, so that is a bonus.
 
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Victim said:
If you take lots of damage, don't sweat it. Our fighter type PCs typically need Heal spells after every fight, if we don't require one in the middle. Big tough monsters and enemy fighters will hit you - AC reduces their chance for MULTIPLE hits or made power attack damage. Offense increases more in 3rd than it did in prior editions.

It certainly seems that way-thanks for the support. However, there are a few ideas from this thread I will try to see if I can get a bit of an edge.
 

Magesmiley said:
One other thing I wanted to comment on... your equipment value levels do seem a bit low. The group I was with didn't have a lot of trouble here when we played. Just look around - not all treasure and valuable items are golden. Get yourself a portable hole and make sure you take anything and everything that isn't nailed down with you. The guards with the masterwork banded mail and masterwork bastard swords in particular we particularly welcomed running into. Even looking at 50% value for reselling these items, the guards were well worth the time spent dispatching them, particularly when we were lower levels. The trick is to be doing this the entire time you are exploring. It ratchets up the value of gear you end up with by a considerable margin.

We have a few "problems" in this area.

1) We are focussing on the magic stuff when we loot so as to move fast and light. (Also our characters don't like to strip every dead guy for anything not nailed down-although I suppose that is going to hurt slightly in the long term wealth department. On the other hand, I wonder if I could sell good strong orc teeth to a barber surgeon in Greyhawk :D

2) We have bypassed quite a lot of the outer mines as holding grunts who are merely blade fodder designed to distract us from our main goal of tackling the Doomdreamers. This makes sense from an in-character assessment (and the hordes of orcs were getting boring to us players ;) ) but inevitably we will have missed some gear.

Still, I reckon a few of the "combined arms" ideas here will keep me going a bit longer.
 

Magesmiley said:
This is kind of intriguing to me, as the last character I played was the tank for the exact same campaign. I also played a dwarven fighter (although I opted for the Anointed Knight Prestige Class instead of Dwarven Defender). My sole goal was to be able to soak up hideous amounts of damage and keep on ticking (my prior character had met a rather untimely end due to lower hp). I did go with the high AC route and it actually worked pretty well for me. I was able to take the abuse in pretty much every combat

I'm not sure if you've got Races of Stone or not, but it is a pretty good book if you're after a Dwarven Fighter type.

There are two feats in ROS which improve your ability to wear heavy armor (+1 AC and a lower Armor Check Penalty). See about getting those. The Dwarven Fighter Racial Substitution Class has an equivalent abilty at 8th level, for a total of +3 AC and a chance of actually successfully treading water if you have all three.

Ditch the mithral full plate in favor of a suit of Admantine Battle Plate (ROS again) if you can manage it. You'll need another feat here too. A slightly higher AC, plus a - DR. Even if you don't get this, I recommend the admantine plate armor over the mithral.

Start stacking up the little bonuses!!!! I can't emphasize this enough.
Your shopping list needs to include:
Amulet of Natural Armor
Ring of Protection
Ioun Stone

A +2 for each of the first two is fairly inexpensive and together they'll up your AC another 5 points.

Definitely use Combat Expertise and consider combining it with fighting defensively. The big trick here is figure out how much to use and when to use it. You goal should be have an AC 20 points higher than your opponent's Attack Bonus and no more. An AC of 34 (get the little items I mentioned above) can shift as high as 41 using combat expertise and fighting defensively. What is important to realize is that you get the most benefit from shifting the required attack roll to hit you from the 15+ range to 20. Shifting up the lower end required attack rolls to the mid-range has less of an effect than shifting a high roll higher. You want to be in that high roll range.

Let me illustrate my point with some examples:
Attack Bonus +18 and averages 40 points of damage/round
AC 29: Hits 50% of the time, averages 20 points/round
AC 34: Hits 25% of the time, averages 10 points/round
AC 39: This 5% of the time, averages 2 point/round
At AC 29, you'll probably last about 7-8 rounds against this foe.
At AC 34, it goes up to 14-15 rounds.
At AC 39, it is up to 70-80 rounds.
You'll note that the move from an 11+ to 16+ attack roll needed cuts the average damage in half between the two numbers. Moving from 16+ to 20 cuts the average damage by 80% (or 90% if you're comparing between 11+ and 20). Big difference in how long you can last.

Example 2:
Attack Bonus +30 and 40 points of damage/round
AC 29: Hits 95% of the time, averages 38 points/round = 4 rounds
AC 34: Hits 85% of the time, averages: 34 points/round = 5 rounds
AC 39: Hits 60% of the time, averages 24 points/round = 6-7 rounds
You'll note that the AC boosts are less effective here, although they do have an impact.

There is essentially an AC point you want to be above for AC to really be effective at cutting down the amount of damage you take.

Just my thoughts and observatiosn on the subject. Hope they help some.

Can't use Races of Stone unfortunately.

However, I see what you mean on the calculation front. I had started to feel that expertise wasn't always showing its worth when I did try it on the odd occasion, but the way you have shown it I see why. I was looking at expertise when faced with a really nasty attack, but it looks like I should just accept the hit in this case (rather than trying to give myself a bit more chance of avoiding the attack at the margins) and use expertise against the mid range attack scores in order to virtually negate them. Overall it seems counter intuitive but it will be mathematically more efficient, especially if I can get some miss chances going to disrupt the number of high attack scores landing a blow on me anyway.
 

kigmatzomat said:
IMC campaign the fighter ranks his injuries in "bard's worths."
I'm with Green Slime on this one... still laughing as I type. The only problem I have with it is that I didn't think that Bard's were worth anything! ;)

But back to the main thread, this topic is usually reserved for Barbarians - typically they are the warrior class moaning about armor class.

And if it is any consolation, we fared poorly in RttTEE with 6 characters.
 

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