My fighter always gets battered-am I "normal"?

[Nail]

We are focussing on the magic stuff when we loot so as to move fast and light.

That's too bad.

Many of the adventurers are designed with "total wealth" in mind from all possible encounters. By leaving behind lots of mundane loot, you're -in affect- leaving behind treasure that was designed to increase your PC's wealth to the proper levels.

As for skipping the orcs: again, the adventure was probably designed for you to slaughter these challenges and gain these XPs.

There is a great Rule of Adventuring that you should know about. I first saw it while reading Contact's great ToEE storyhour (...ahh, the good ole days....). Here it is:

"ALWAYS clear the present dungeon level before moving on to the next. NEVER skip dungeon levels...especially if there is a secret passage that allows you to do so!"

 

[SBMC]

Well a few things from my experiece.

First, fighters dont have high AC to prevent monsters from hitting them. They have a high AC to prevent monsters from large power attacks and from hitting them on attack 2 or 3.

I Disagree - your fighter's AC should be good enough to force our opponents to miss most of the time - and that is where the money should go - armor and shields are cheap when compared to weapons and other forms of armor protection.

In this guys case; the AC 29 is solid for ECL12 - very solid. But why is he still getting smacked around so badly? (melee that is; not counting touch attacks and the like). In addition your Wizard hangs back casting spells. Your cleric probably does the same for at least the first round or two - where do you go? Right into the fray. And what else (in melee that is) are the monsters going to hit besides you?

There are two parts to combat; offense and defense. You prevent as many hits as you can while causing as many as you can - you get the staying power your opponent does not for the sole purpose of damaging him more often and with more than he can do to you.

He has the defense IMO but the offense? +1's for weapons? At 12th level? In this

meat grinder

..of a campaign (and it indeed is!)?

The focus here is on defense; but I say it is offense - his fighter is in the battle to long; he is not actually dishing out enough damage - or more importantly his WHOLE PARTY is no dishing out enough damage. Thus over time, he gets hit more (the more chances; the more it happens) and I would bet that the average amount of damage he takes per round is pretty steep.

He is also a Dwarven Defender; stays in one spot…

He said the wizard plops stoneskin on him as well before combat - with DR like that he is still getting smacked around that badly? Something is wrong mechanic wise or strategy wise. One item mechanic wise someone already brought up - these guys are below the wealth curve.

Strategy wise - Why is that wizard not dropping a fireball or two right in the middle of the baddies BEFORE the fighter engages - to soften them up for the fighter? Artillery has done that (soften up the target) in modern militaries for centuries. Perhaps the problem here is that the wizard and cleric support he fighter directly; not in combat. Beefing up your frontline fighter is nice - but that means he still gets just that; beefed up himself. That only goes so far. A fireball and flame strike in one round against a group or one big baddie is pretty nasty; it should make it much easier to kill them off (though it may still be very hard to do so). That followed by some ranged touch attacks and some melee support from the cleric…

Currently I play a 15th level fighter - we have a cleric and wizard in the party (along with a rouge and Dexterity type fighter) as well; and what we do; always; let the casters toss the stuff in there (if possible) first. THEN the fighters go in smashing them up - cleave works great here! If there is no time then strategize - try to make is so that a group of them get stuck together so later the caster can blast them (such as going to a corner and the bad guys follow - the caster does his thing and the radius his all of them but not you)

Is that one fighter trying to ensure he does not get surrounded in melee - stand in a doorway, back against a wall etc - limit the number of combatants that have a shot at you at any one time.

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Do convince the casters to summon. Those delightful speedbumps can be good for soaking up enemy actions.

Excellent point. I have played scores of fighters - and one thing has ALWAYS sounded true: if your the only target available close by; then your the only target available close by.


Just my two cents.

 

[ForceUser]

I have been toying with the idea of trialling a "full 5 point expertise all the time" to see if this can significantly reduce the blows I take, but wonder if this will make me useless in attack? Before I try this, any other advice from seasoned fighter types out there?

I'm playing a dwarven Bbn 1/Ftr 11 with a similar feat progression. Our gear differs a bit; my guy has +3 dwarven full plate, a +3 falchion, a +3 amulet of natural armor, bracers that cast shield 3/day, and a +2 ring of protection for defense. I also combine the Improved Toughness feat with an 18 Con. At 12th level, my PC has 134 hps--11 fewer hps than yours. His base AC is 25, or 29 with shield cast, or 31 with shield cast and the whirling frenzy rage variant from Unearthed Arcana. All in all, our PCs appear pretty similar.

I don't get smacked around nearly as much as you seem to be getting smacked around. There are a few reasons for this. One, there are six PCs in my party, including another dwarf in full plate (Clr 8/Ftr 4) and a human paladin (Pal 10/Divine Crusader 2). All three of us are in the front ranks quite a lot, so the melee damage from monsters is divided up three ways. That's probably the biggest difference. Two, my character doesn't tend to be in melee with the same monster for more than 2 rounds, because with Power Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Critical and a falchion, I tend to finish off even monsters loaded with hit points in short order. My PC rarely gets a full attack in a round, because the monster is dead by the time the 3rd or 4th attack arrives. My PC regularly power attacks for 5, doing 2d4+25 damage, or 4d4+50 on a crit. With a threat range of 15-20, he crits about 30% of the time. When using Great Cleave against multiple foes, it's not uncommon for my PC to dish out ~200 damage/round.

So with my guy, he takes 1/3rd of the melee hits and dishes out insane damage. Few monsters can withstand him in melee for more than a round or two. Combine that with two other fighters, a wizard, a cleric and a ranger (archer), and I rarely drop below 1/2 hit points in a given encounter.

I think your PC's real problem is two-fold--one, you're the only guy taking hits, and two, your group is one less than the magic quartet recommended for most D&D adventures. What needs to happen in your situation is for the cleric to share some of the tanking responsibilities with you. If he's wearing plate armor and can cast righteous might, then his a$$ needs to be right next to you in the front ranks, soaking hits. That's my advice--get the cleric involved.

 

[Endur]

I recommend using Power Attack against squishies: spell casters and unarmored targets.

I recommend using Combat Expertise at the beginning of a fight: round 1 and 2.

The idea is that most of the danger in a fight occurs in the first two rounds. In those rounds, your AC is maximized. After the first two rounds, you'll know whether your party is winning or losing. You'll also know whether to start power attacking or continue to expertise.

Yes, PA and Combat Expertise do make you hit less often. I normally don't recommend expertise as a feat, but since you have it, you should definitely use it in the first round or two.

When you do use PA or Combat Expertise, definitely max them out. i.e. -10 to hit, +20 to damage for power attack or -5 to hit, +5 to AC for combat expertise.

Also, while Stoneskin is nice, you probably want some more buffing spells. Magic Vestment on your armor and shield. Any other 1/hour per level spells your party has should be applied if possible.

AC 29 is low for a dwarven defender of your level. My Dwarven Defender had an AC higher than that when he was several levels lower than your character.

 

[Veril]

Take the leadership feat, and get yourself a pet mystic theurge. You want someone who can buff you up, low level cleric and wizard spells are simply great for that. Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield, Bless, Stat buffs, prot vs evil, prayer, enlage, resist energy, blur, haste, fly, heroism, the list just goes on and on. A cohort gives you an extra action effectivly, sure you will need to kit him up, but your other party members can be pursuaded into giving you the higher leveled buffs, and your cohort can take a plethora of low levelled stuff instead - stuff that makes you great. A 10th level chort can be a 3wiz/3clr/4MTh, with 4th cleric and wizard spells. That's a great bonus for you. Oh, and he can always convert his cleric spells into cures ) Because your cohort doesn't need to shine directly he doesn't need to load up on flashy offensive spells, let the 'real' wizard in the party do that, the buffing on you will more than make up for it.

You are missing natural ac and deflection bonus' - getting some of those makes a big difference to your AC, and will reduce the damage you take.

 

[azhrei_fje]

It occurred to me that because there are only three PCs in the party, the DM should be awarding extra XP because of the smaller than average group. This means your party is going to progress even *faster* -- and that makes the wealth difference even more important.

Especially in RttToEE: don't skip areas. Trust me, there's something in just about every area that you'll need. It might be a magic item, it might be mundane treasure (so you can buy other stuff or bribe the local guards), it could be a note or pages from a book that detail important information, it could be an unexpected ally... Heck, it could be that wiping out one area lets the cleric cast speak with dead and gain pretty valuable information. My party has been using speak with dead so often, they should just get a phone line installed into the Outer planes! And we have three fighters: a barbarian, a paladin, and a cleric wearing full plate.

You've got some ideas. Good luck with them!

 

[SteveC]

Sounds like an adolescent angst post, but I am playing my first 3.5 fighter in RttToEE. By my old 1st ed perceptions he is rock hard with AC 29 and 145hp, but after almost EVERY battle he is in dire need of healing. The monsters hit him almost without fail, and since 3rd ed monsters do more damage, his 145hp quickly drop. Is this just the way 3rd ed is or could I do something to make those hp last longer?

For your information, I am part of a 3 man party, playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. (The others are a wizard and a cleric). We are about half way up the tower where the Doomdreamers are supposed to live, if you know the adventure. My character is a Dwarf Rogue1/Fighter8/Defender3. AC29, 145hp. Mithral Full Plate +2, Animated Tower shield +1, Waraxe +1, girdle of giant strength +4, cloak of resist+1, brooch of shielding, 3 potions cure light wounds, mace+1, composite bow (+4 str), about 480gp in loose change and that's the lot. My adjusted str is 24, dex 15. Feats are wpn focus/specialisation, dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave, great cleave, endurance, toughness, improved critical. The wizard regularly puts a stoneskin on me (thank Moraddin!) so I get 10 point damage reduction. I don't give away attacks of opportunity if I can help it (eg let the monsters come to me and then 5 ft step in to full attack them).

I use my axe 2 handed, usually with a 5 point or 3 point power attack, so I dish out a lot of damage, but I don't usually use expertise as I then tend not to hit the foes very well. I have been toying with the idea of trialling a "full 5 point expertise all the time" to see if this can significantly reduce the blows I take, but wonder if this will make me useless in attack? Before I try this, any other advice from seasoned fighter types out there?

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but let me offer a slightly different approach. YOU seem to be doing your job pretty well. How are your other two members doing? What I mean is that in a smaller group everyone needs to be inherently more efficient to make up for the lack of extra bodies...err targets for the opposition. Having made it through the Tomb of Abythsor recently with only two casualties, here are my suggestions:

First, sit down with the mage and cleric and go over their spells to get you optimized for battle. Two suggestions: summon monster to give your opponents something else to hit, and magic circle against evil for you. Tomb was full of bad-guy clerics, and the magic circle saved us so many times I lost count. As someone who owns and has run Temple as well, you're in for a lot of cleric encounters as time goes by. What our group ended up doing was going level by level through the spell lists (we used the complete books, so this took a while) and picked out all of the offensive and defensive buffs that would stack together. We put together a standard "combat package" based on those buffs.

Second, fight those battles at a time and place of your choosing. Spend some time talking about what you expect to do each session, get in, get it done and get out. Both of our deaths in Tomb occurred when we had accomplished what we should have done, and then decided to stick it out for "one more room."

Third, take a look at the tactics you're using for fights. I see that you have both cleave and great cleave (I am resisting the Order of the Stick reference here). Most people believe that you don't get a lot of use out of great cleave at higher levels, and this is true a lot of the time--but that's largely due to bad tactics! When you get into a battle, you can see pretty easily how many HPs your opponents have. After a few battles, you'll get to know some of them by heart. The way to handle it is to have your wizard nuke 'em to the point where you can come in and finish them off in one blow. Most of the time I've seen wizards do complete overkill on their opponents, which is a waste.

Hope that helps...

--Steve

 

[TimSmith]

It occurred to me that because there are only three PCs in the party, the DM should be awarding extra XP because of the smaller than average group. This means your party is going to progress even *faster* -- and that makes the wealth difference even more important.

Especially in RttToEE: don't skip areas. Trust me, there's something in just about every area that you'll need. It might be a magic item, it might be mundane treasure (so you can buy other stuff or bribe the local guards), it could be a note or pages from a book that detail important information, it could be an unexpected ally... Heck, it could be that wiping out one area lets the cleric cast speak with dead and gain pretty valuable information. My party has been using speak with dead so often, they should just get a phone line installed into the Outer planes! And we have three fighters: a barbarian, a paladin, and a cleric wearing full plate.

You've got some ideas. Good luck with them!

Hmm, it might be my imagination (after all, I haven't read the adventure) but I am sensing a tendency on the part of the DM to ENCOURAGE us to strike to the head of the organisation. (Perhaps he doesn't want it to take so long in real time as it should.) A couple of things happened that just felt like his own mods to the adventure, that sort of thing, and both players and DM felt the initial waves of easy grunts once we got to the mines (perhaps because a three man party goes up levels quicker, as you say) were getting boring for very little gain in XP or loot. My Dwarf is inherently a practical, cautious guy who wanted to "cover our lines of communication" by clearing the outer levels entirely, but the mage is semi insane (genuinely-not my opinion) and chaotic and is just gung-ho for the biggest enemy he can find. I get over ruled a fair bit.

I hope after reading this that we ARE playing a plot modified version of Temple, (even if the monsters are not- even worse the demons etc are the harder 3.5 versions!) because otherwise it could all go horribly wrong by the sounds of it!

 

[TimSmith]

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but let me offer a slightly different approach. YOU seem to be doing your job pretty well. How are your other two members doing? What I mean is that in a smaller group everyone needs to be inherently more efficient to make up for the lack of extra bodies...err targets for the opposition. Having made it through the Tomb of Abythsor recently with only two casualties, here are my suggestions:

First, sit down with the mage and cleric and go over their spells to get you optimized for battle. Two suggestions: summon monster to give your opponents something else to hit, and magic circle against evil for you. Tomb was full of bad-guy clerics, and the magic circle saved us so many times I lost count. As someone who owns and has run Temple as well, you're in for a lot of cleric encounters as time goes by. What our group ended up doing was going level by level through the spell lists (we used the complete books, so this took a while) and picked out all of the offensive and defensive buffs that would stack together. We put together a standard "combat package" based on those buffs.

Second, fight those battles at a time and place of your choosing. Spend some time talking about what you expect to do each session, get in, get it done and get out. Both of our deaths in Tomb occurred when we had accomplished what we should have done, and then decided to stick it out for "one more room."

Third, take a look at the tactics you're using for fights. I see that you have both cleave and great cleave (I am resisting the Order of the Stick reference here). Most people believe that you don't get a lot of use out of great cleave at higher levels, and this is true a lot of the time--but that's largely due to bad tactics! When you get into a battle, you can see pretty easily how many HPs your opponents have. After a few battles, you'll get to know some of them by heart. The way to handle it is to have your wizard nuke 'em to the point where you can come in and finish them off in one blow. Most of the time I've seen wizards do complete overkill on their opponents, which is a waste.

Hope that helps...

--Steve

Makes a lot of sense. Whether the mad mage will sit still long enough for in-depth spell planning is debatable, though He worships his toad familiar as a deity and really does play as hyperactive and round the twist, so quick simple requests work best (eg this spell would be cool and look pretty- how about casting that on me).

 

[Shellman]

I had to take Toughness for the Defender class plus I don't think the DM is using the extra books. If and when I get more cash I will consider the amulet, but I wonder if amulet of natural armour might not be a more efficient spend?

\

You should ask about improved toughness. The Amulet of health is always worth it, the extra con pumps up you fort save as well as HP.