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Stalker0

Legend
Interesting. I would be curious to know how you were playing: VTT? Pen and paper? I ask only because back in my PF1e days, we were playing with paper and it really did get annoying tracking things. But PF2e (and A5e), we are playing with a VTT and even PF2e doesn't seem too crunchy anymore. Everything is just there and easy to track. I rarely have to remember anything.

We've been playing our game for a while now and expertise has been my favorite addition by far. Not only does it allow me to excel more at something than other players, but it also provides additional situational bonuses that give me a reason to solve problems more creatively. With O5e, my biggest complaint is that every character winds up being only marginally different from other characters because proficiency is static. Yeah, I might have more or less bonus from my ability score, but one person being good at arcana is the same as another. Now we can focus on specific aspects of it and with some DM creativity, get different narrative results from our rolls. PF2e essentially operates the same way but with a fixed bonus instead of dice (though the average is about the same, IIRC).

Regarding the subclasses/archetypes, I do think it's hard to really judge the A5e ones if you're not playing them. This would also make it hard to really grasp expertise and maneuvers since O5e ones don't grant those. However, it is unsurprising that a player who is an optimizer might not be so into the more balanced archetypes in A5e. But the rebalancing is why I like A5e; a lot of things needed to be toned down. I would be curious if they actually mean "stronger/more powerful in combat" rather than "better" as I do not think these things are the same.

Maneuvers have been a mixed bag. I am always looking for opportunities to use them, but they end up being very situational and I don't often seem to be in the right situation. Partly this is because I wanted to play a ranged ranger and all the ranged maneuvers are pretty... non-existent, but I also feel like I'm just not in the right situation enough. I wonder if being able to switch them out on a long rest might alleviate that. I understand the idea of having a character who has signature moves, so to speak, but if you have a character who can, say, blind people and now you're fighting exclusively things without eyes, I can imagine that getting tiresome.

I also agree that having certain things rely on the DM to dole out rewards and others not isn't the best. It is one of my complaints about the artificer. If you have the right DM, it's fine, but if you don't, you might just never get inspiration or new schematics or this or that thing, but other players are getting inspiration or the wizard does get new spells because that's just the rules. Sometimes the DM just forgets, but other times they're just a dick and I don't think core features should be tied to DM whims.

Supply... I think I agree with Morrus. If you're frequently in towns, of course you can get supply. It's mainly there for when taking long journeys. Your strength score dictates how much free supply you can carry and additional rations can get heavy, so there's only so much you can carry. If you're just giving people bags of holding, yeah, you're going to completely defeat the mechanic.
To your question, it was an online game but mainly theater of the mind, we didn’t use a VTT.

Supply wise I actually used the “container” variant and only gave the players 2-3 containers each (so very low supply compared to standard rules). But between the hunt actions and the ranger knacks the party had no supply attrition. And of course they kill one good animal as a combat encounter and they could fill up on some supply (this was an annoying lack in the rules, the party defeats a large bear as a combat encounter let’s say with tons of meat, of course the party is going to cook it, but the rules don’t cover that at all). They didn’t even have a home base per se for the first half of the game, just lived in a forest. And lastly, in the event they actually ever got low on supply, the cleric would cast Create Water to top off their supplies. Even 1-2 castings was usually enough if for example their hunt checks went poorly during a week or so.

Eventually i shifted it to a “group supply” concept, where the large refugee camp needed supplies every week, and while the party abilities could assist that they couldn’t just feed that many people straight up. This worked better and created a driving force of survival for a while. Eventually the camp learned enough skill to be mostly self sufficient.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
I’m pretty harsh with exploration challenge Supply loss.
I think the examples given in the book though really aren't. For example, I used the tier 2 feywood region quite a bit in my campaign. If you use the random table for encounters, you have only a 7% chance to have an encounter where you lose supplies, and that's of course assuming you fail the checks.

And the rules don't really give that much guidance on how often to have encounters when traveling through a region. Once a day, once a week?
 

Pedantic

Legend
I think the examples given in the book though really aren't. For example, I used the tier 2 feywood region quite a bit in my campaign. If you use the random table for encounters, you have only a 7% chance to have an encounter where you lose supplies, and that's of course assuming you fail the checks.

And the rules don't really give that much guidance on how often to have encounters when traveling through a region. Once a day, once a week?
That was generally my feeling as well. The potential for the system is there, but I think it's going to take some tuning before it's really doing what I want. I've been meaning to sit down and build a party level Journey activity/supply tracking sheet, and then do some simulations so I can push it toward a number I'm happy with.

I am very intrigued by the idea of a nomadic campaign, that has the party routinely caring for and bringing a bunch of people from place to place. Supply as a whole group HP total with built in attrition is very appealing for that.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I think the examples given in the book though really aren't.
That’s what I said in the second paragraph of the post you’re quoting.

And the rules don't really give that much guidance on how often to have encounters when traveling through a region. Once a day, once a week?

That’s deliberate. It’s up to you. Journeys are as involved as you want to make them. Some people just want one encounter per journey for flavour. Others want them every day, and for the journey to be a focus of their game. Some people want LotR, some people want Star Wars.

Maybe a tiny table somewhere would make that clearer…. we tried to use terms like ‘possible solutions’ and the like and reiterate that the penalties for failure and so on where up to the Narrator. And like I said, I play it pretty harsh.
 

Stalker0

Legend
That’s what I said in the second paragraph of the post you’re quoting.



That’s deliberate. It’s up to you. Journeys are as involved as you want to make them. Some people just want one encounter per journey for flavour. Others want them every day, and for the journey to be a focus of their game. Some people want LotR, some people want Star Wars.

Maybe a tiny table somewhere would make that clearer…. we tried to use terms like ‘possible solutions’ and the like and reiterate that the penalties for failure and so on were up to the Narrator. And like I said, I play it pretty harsh.
I think the fundamental “issue” is the class abilities that generate supply.

A 5th level ranger with the grubs knack can fully cover 3 of your party, not to mention other knacks that let you hunt and do other journey activities. Throw in the occasional create water as a backup, and a party with literally 0 stored supply can travel just fine. In other words, a few class features literally turn off the supply system.

Now we can argue “well a ranger should be helping their party survive in the woods”, but it’s not like a rogue turns off the trap systems, yet it feels that the ranger just turns off the supply system.

If the passive “rate of supply creation” was lowered for certain abilities, then the amount of supply (and supply draining encounters) would be a greater factor.

Or…make it a bit more of a risk. Example: instead of the grubs, the ranger knack lets them generate 3 supply instead of 2 when hunting. Still likely a lot of supply…but at least no longer guaranteed.

Maybe create water has a spell casting check, so it’s a bit of a gamble.
 

Ferrousbones

Artificer
lets them generate 3 supply instead of 2 when hunting
Supply, rations, basically any survival resources at all, should not be "from thin air". Anything that produces such a resource should consume X amount to produce X+Y amount, which should then spoil after the key time (hour, day, week; whatever the primary replenishment time is; which is per day/long-rest in o5e).

Not needing to work on sourcing from the environment is a killer of 'survival' gameplay.

Related: I honestly don't like that Supply is entirely separate from carrying capacity, in that its weight isn't considered. Being so is less narratively satisfying, and doesn't make inventory management any easier.
 

Retreater

Legend
Thanks for the great, detailed write-up.
When I tried to put A5e into my O5e game, it came crashing down. All this brings home to me that I'm just tired of the 5e chassis. So no 5e, Tales of the Valiant, Level Up, etc. I'm ready to put all of that away.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Maybe create water has a spell casting check, so it’s a bit of a gamble.
Create water doesn't create Supply.

I know you're not asking for advice, but if you do decide to try the system again, my suggestion would be to simply drain the Supply a bit more. It's entirely your choice how much you do so. In my group we actually have the opposite problem--they run out quite quickly.

But yes, as I mentioned above, the suggested values are quite lenient. But they are just suggested values--it can be as demanding or lenient as the Narrator chooses.
 

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