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My Paladin killed a.. 2nd thread (The Verdict is IN - p4)

Quasqueton

First Post
You know, I count something in excess of two dozen paladins in the same building.
Would this room be considered the safest place in the world right now? (Assuming you are not evil.)

It is cool, I can imagine that this is perhaps the only courtroom where no one thinks it necessary to disarm everyone entering. I can picture 30 paladins in court, all with their various weapons and armor, yet no thought of violence is even considered.

Quasqueton
 

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MaxKaladin

First Post
SALADIN said:
however, in all fairness to Vindicator, when one arrives on scene to witness such vile a crime being delivered upon such innocent a victim, it would take someone with astounding wisdom or gross indifference to stay the sword arm from delivering rightful justice.


"And it is for this reason that I believe he should be considered innocent. We must not forget that he was suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with a great evil. Even under the best of circumstances, it can be very difficult to avoid springing into action and visiting the righteous fury of ones diety upon such a vile evildoer. We must not forget that Vindicator had only moments to act and we must make some allowance for not having the time to fully weigh all of the options and considerations others have thought of after the fact when they are not under the pressure of time or the shock of encountering such evil so suddenly. I suppose some might argue that a paladin should grow accustomed to such in the line of duty, but I would counter that any paladin who becomes accustomed to such evil may well become unsitable to remain a paladin. "
 
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MaxKaladin

First Post
Henry said:
Try as I might, I cannot say, "Max Kaladin, Tormish Paladin" with a straight face. :)
Well, that's probably because the name was created as a joke for a one shot in which I was playing a paladin, but the one-shot became a campaign and the character became a serious character. The name, however, stuck and Max became one of my longest running characters ever.
 

MaxKaladin

First Post
Zimri said:
I did speak of the trauma that would befall the child at such an occurance. Though admittedly not before this court as I was ill quallified to stand beside so many just and noble persons and offer them instruction. My comments were made amongst the crowd in the village square that lead to these proceedings.
"Greetings. I did intend to say that that consideration was not mentioned in these proceedings. I think it a relevant point and is certainly something Vindicator should consider in the future, but it should not be a cause for him to lose his paladinhood. Perhaps I err in favor of the virtue of mercy, but I would submit that it was a serious mistake, but one that can be learned from and that the lesson will serve to make him a better paladin in the future. I feel stripping someone of their calling is best done that they act against the spirit of their calling and I do not feel that was the case here.

Being a paladin is an exercise in balancing the demands of the various ideals and virtues you are charged with upholding. Many times you will find that those ideals are in conflict and that one must decide which ideal is most important in the context of the specific situation or which can be neglected with the least harm. Different paladins can choose different paths and there are obviously those who feel Vindicator chose the wrong path. I do not feel that he abandoned the path, however, and thus do not feel he should be stripped of his calling.

Penance, meditation, contemplation. Whatever you wish to call it, I feel that it would do no harm and would certainly help Vindicator judge wisely in the future for it is our nature as mortals to learn from our mistakes. All paladins should take the time to contemplate their actions and consider if anything could be done better the next time such a situation was encountered even if none have suggested that the paladin has been anything but exemplary in his actions. Believing that one cannot act wrongly and that all of ones decisions are above reproach is dangerously prideful and that, too, is something a paladin must avoid being. Indeed, I was a proud paladin in my younger days -- as well as quick to battle as Vindicator seems to have been. My quest for my steed was largely intended to show me the error of my ways and make a better paladin of me. I would be remiss if I suggested that Vindicator should not be given the same opportunity to gain insight into his shortcomings and overcome them as I had. After all, paladinhood is not a destination, it is a path albeit a narrow one. One cannot stray far from the path without falling off, but there also time to grab someone who starts to stray and pull them back onto the path before they fall completely off and I feel that is what should be done for Vindicator.

But, perhaps being so long winded as I is also a violation of some virtue, though I confess I have not stopped to consider which one that might be. "
 


Torm

First Post
Agemegos said:
I will serve if I am called. But I beg Lord Torm that I might be excused.

Of course. We will let you know if we find out anything regarding Vindicator's ultimate status....
 

Agemegos

Explorer
Cannibal_Kender said:
Sir Prendergast, Paladin of St. Cuthbert, LG

He should keep his paladinhood. The foul villain would have hung anyway.

With respect, that is very far from being the only point.

One other point is that a paladin is required to act with honour, and many of us doubt that stiking and unarmed man from behind without warning is honourable.

A second point is that a paladin is required to respect legitimate authority. By taking the law into his own hands, Sir Vindicator showed disrespect to the established authorities. And if there were no legitimate authorities, then he treated his own authority with contempt and disrespect by a shabby, disorderly, secretive, hasty proceeding in a back room.

A third point is that a paladin is under some circumstances required to act as judge, jury and executioner, but Sir Vindicator shirked the duties of judge and jury. viz, the duty of judge to demonstrate for all to see that agents of justice are serving justice and not some private end, the duty of a jury to hear and impartially consider any defence. A paladin is required to bring law to lawless lands: Sir Vindicator did not. His actions brought the law into disrepute, and will tend to promote suspicion and feud. As a result of his conduct, some people will turn to private vengeance instead of to the law, and innocent people who find themselves in suspicious circumstances will fear the law as their persecutor instead of loving it as their protector.

A fourth point is that only a person of Lawful alignment is capable of being a paladin. A person of lawful alignment feels in his bones the importance of the law being administered openly and with demonstrated impartiality. He feels in his bones that the exerecise of authority and judgment must not be undertaken lightly, unadvisedly, or wantonly, but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God, with due attention to the reasons that authority are established. The reckless, intemperate, disorderly way in which Sir Vindicator carried out his back-room slaughter, and the fact that even in the aftermath he saw nothing wrong in what he had done raises a grave suspicion that he is not of lawful alignment.

Finally: by the grace of God Sir Vindicator turned out in this case to be correct in his hasty judgment. But if he keeps on as he is, failing to consider any possible defnce, one day he will stumble across circumstance in which the superficial appearances are gravely misleading. And if on that occasion he executes a sentence of death without allowing for the possibility of a defence, an innocent man will die at his hand. And yet he shows no sign of recognising that his haste was wrong.


You judge the case in isolation, with regard only to the outcome on the individual. That is a Chaotic standard. As paladins, we must apply a Lawful standard. We must consider the means as well as the ends. We must consider the wider effects, in for example promoting Law or Chaos in the community. We must have an eye of what may reasonably be expected if the actions we judge are followed as a rule.

I did consider those issues. And I did apply such a standard. And as it happens I voted as you did: for acquital on any charge that could result in Sir Vindicator ceasing to be a paladin. But it alarms me, my lord, that you seem not to have considered all the points, and seem not to have applied a Lawful standard.
 
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Agemegos

Explorer
Torm said:
Of course. We will let you know if we find out anything regarding Vindicator's ultimate status....

Thank you, my lord. A Christian who judges does so in peril of his soul. I pray that I will survive being judged with the justice with which I have judged Sir Vindicator. Kyrie eleison.
 

Agemegos

Explorer
MaxKaladin said:
Being a paladin is an exercise in balancing the demands of the various ideals and virtues you are charged with upholding. Many times you will find that those ideals are in conflict and that one must decide which ideal is most important in the context of the specific situation or which can be neglected with the least harm.

<snip>

Penance, meditation, contemplation. Whatever you wish to call it, I feel that it would do no harm and would certainly help Vindicator judge wisely in the future for it is our nature as mortals to learn from our mistakes. All paladins should take the time to contemplate their actions and consider if anything could be done better the next time such a situation was encountered even if none have suggested that the paladin has been anything but exemplary in his actions. Believing that one cannot act wrongly and that all of ones decisions are above reproach is dangerously prideful and that, too, is something a paladin must avoid being.

Amen
 

Agemegos

Explorer
Agemegos said:
With respect,….

OOC: I ought perhaps to explain that Edmund Edwinson is a Saxon (or, strictly speaking, an Angle), and that if you argue with him about Justice you will get an earful. As a certain Norman Baron observed to his son:

"The Saxon is not like us Normans. His manners are not so polite.
"But he never means anything serious til he talks about 'Justice' and 'right'.
"When he stands like an ox in the furrow, with his sullen eyes set on your own,
"And grumbles 'This isn't fair dealing', my son, leave the Saxon alone.

"You can horsewhip your Gascony archers, or torture your Picardy spears;
"But don't try that game on the Saxon, or you'll have the whole brood round your ears.
"From the richest old thane in the county, to the poorest chained serf in the fields,
"They'll be at you and on you like hornets, and if you are wise, you will yield."

- Rudyard Kipling Norman and Saxon

The hearing is over and the verdict in. I am happy enough to go on playing this game, but suggest that no-one take it for other than that. Okay?
 

Torm

First Post
Agemegos said:
The hearing is over and the verdict in. I am happy enough to go on playing this game, but suggest that no-one take it for other than that. Okay?

Not sure if I missed something - was someone taking it for other than that?

The only thing I may be "taking it for" outside of an opportunity for us to have some fun, is that I would still like to know whether it was of any use to Vindicator or his DM....
 

Chupacabra

First Post
An eye-opening and cliche-bending thread. Very informative, especially to someone like me, who always eschewed playing a paladin b/c I felt they were too limited in outlook and thus, too limited in action. How wrong I was.

Good work.
 

Agemegos

Explorer
SALADIN said:
…when one arrives on scene to witness such vile a crime being delivered upon such innocent a victim, it would take someone with astounding wisdom or gross indifference to stay the sword arm from delivering rightful justice.

My lord, I am happy to report that men are wiser than you dare to hope. Such crimes and worse are more common than we can understand without horror. And yet to our great good fortune bailliffs and justices across the land, and other servants of the law in other lands stay their hands in respect of Justice.

In my father's time in England it would have been up to the victim's family to avenge a crime such as this. And as a malefactor's family are the last to believe evil of their kinsman, the result all too often would have been a feud. But since the reign of the previous King William the people of England have learned that justice for such crimes is available in the courts of the King's justices, and these proceed with such conspicuous impartiality and are so scrupulous to consider the defence of the accused, and that the punishments for crimes are both just and adequate. And so we no longer seek private vengeance if we believe that our cause is just. The country is much more peaceful and orderly now, and even the chroniclers in their monasteries comment that the crime of rape in particular is much less rampant than it was aforetimes.

It is perhaps because of this that the English fyrd has been much more faithful to two successive kings than the Norman barons have been to either.

The due and public process of the courts, and the peace and order that it brings to all, are a precious jewel, a golden thread that I pray will never be broken in my land.
 
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MaxKaladin said:
"And it is for this reason that I believe he should be considered innocent. We must not forget that he was suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with a great evil. Even under the best of circumstances, it can be very difficult to avoid springing into action and visiting the righteous fury of ones diety upon such a vile evildoer. We must not forget that Vindicator had only moments to act and we must make some allowance for not having the time to fully weigh all of the options and considerations others have thought of after the fact when they are not under the pressure of time or the shock of encountering such evil so suddenly. I suppose some might argue that a paladin should grow accustomed to such in the line of duty, but I would counter that any paladin who becomes accustomed to such evil may well become unsitable to remain a paladin. "

Ditto, mein comrade!
 

Agemegos A fourth point is that only a person of Lawful alignment is capable of being a paladin. A person of lawful alignment feels in his bones the importance of the law being administered openly and with demonstrated impartiality. He feels in his bones that the exerecise of authority and judgment must not be undertaken lightly said:
saw nothing wrong[/i] in what he had done raises a grave suspicion that he is not of lawful alignment.QUOTE]

NEVER "in Fear of God", Brother, EVER In Love with GOD!!!
 

Agemegos said:
My lord, I am happy to report that men are wiser than you dare to hope. Such crimes and worse are more common than we can understand without horror. And yet to our great good fortune bailliffs and justices across the land, and other servants of the law in other lands stay their hands in respect of Justice.

In my father's time in England it would have been up to the victim's family to avenge a crime such as this. And as a malefactor's family are the last to believe evil of their kinsman, the result all too often would have been a feud. But since the reign of the previous King William the people of England have learned that justice for such crimes is available in the courts of the King's justices, and these proceed with such conspicuous impartiality and are so scrupulous to consider the defence of the accused, and that the punishments for crimes are both just and adequate. And so we no longer seek private vengeance if we believe that our cause is just. The country is much more peaceful and orderly now, and even the chroniclers in their monasteries comment that the crime of rape in particular is much less rampant than it was aforetimes.

It is perhaps because of this that the English fyrd has been much more faithful to two successive kings than the Norman barons have been to either.

The due and public process of the courts, and the peace and order that it brings to all, are a precious jewel, a golden thread that I pray will never be broken in my land.

I appreciate your point, good sir!
 

Zimri said:
We are all but tools of the multiverse, ensuring that things work out the way they are supposed to. Do not mistake that statement for neutrality howevr. Evil must be fought. If you slay one evil perhaps it stays dead and perhaps it just gets stronger and comes back. If instead you turn it to good not only has evil assuredly lost a soul and grown weaker but good has gained one and is stronger.

That having been said had I been the one to walk in on that horrid act the perpetrators life would have lasted marginally longer as my ability to subdue is greater than that of vindicator. Once the child was saved, however the perpetrator would have been soundly beaten by an unarmed, unarmored (heck naked even) young woman in the middle of the town square. I am no paladin, the rules for my actions are not nearly as strict. He would have known my Lord was Ilmater, and he would know what being broken feels like.

I am humbled by another facet of wisdom and justice. Something I will take aboard as I continuously learn something new and enlightening each day.
 

Agemegos

Explorer
SALADIN said:
NEVER "in Fear of God", Brother, EVER In Love with GOD!!!

I take your point, Sir Saladin, and agree with the thrust of it. Nevertheless it is traditional in my religion thus to express the truth that the faithful one obeys without argument and without thought of transgression, submits fully to the will of God.
 

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