My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

[Kem]

Since the Paladin did not "sneak up" on the criminal, it was not dishonorable. He was in the doorway, and was unnoticed. He never said he was sneaking up, only that he was in the door way, and was able to draw his sword and attack wasn't noticed.

Otherwise you are giving free range on even dragons to just have them turn their backs on you in order to strip your of paladinhood if you even just attack them. "No sorry can't attack that dragon, he's attacking you but he's unaware of me so I have to wait". To Bad the Dragon is Deaf and is cursed to not be able to see paladins.


By the way, the reason for the situations I outlined in a cave, or if the criminal was an orc. If in either case, you find it to be ok for the Paladin to kill the orc, then in the case with the non-human, the Paladin Stays a paladin.

A Paladin does not go by the local legitamate authority, he respects them, but he goes by his code of conduct. Period. The slavery example earlier shows this. Slavery can be accepted in all the land, but that doesn't NOT mean that the paladin has a slave or will not fight to have slavery removed. Even if the slaves are evil goblins and kobolds.

The Paladin cannot treat Orcs differently from Humans. Both can be redeemed, both are capable of the same thing. Reason Being: If that criminal was in a dungeon off somewhere, and this was the only evil act that the paladin knows of about this character when he comes across the scene, an Orc is killable while a Human is not?

 

[jgbrowning]

Because that's the paladin's job. In modern day terms, a type of law enforcement officer. That's like complaining because a cop can draw his weapon in public and you can't.

I think this is a personal interpretation of what a paladin's role in society is. The class has no more inherant ties to "law enforcement" than the fighter class. If a society is Evil, the Paladin couldn't be associated with law enforcement. Law isn't related to either good or evil.

joe b.

 

[Zimri]

Since the Paladin did not "sneak up" on the criminal, it was not dishonorable. He was in the doorway, and was unnoticed. He never said he was sneaking up, only that he was in the door way, and was able to draw his sword and attack wasn't noticed.

Otherwise you are giving free range on even dragons to just have them turn their backs on you in order to strip your of paladinhood if you even just attack them. "No sorry can't attack that dragon, he's attacking you but he's unaware of me so I have to wait". To Bad the Dragon is Deaf and is cursed to not be able to see paladins.


By the way, the reason for the situations I outlined in a cave, or if the criminal was an orc. If in either case, you find it to be ok for the Paladin to kill the orc, then in the case with the non-human, the Paladin Stays a paladin.

A Paladin does not go by the local legitamate authority, he respects them, but he goes by his code of conduct. Period. The slavery example earlier shows this. Slavery can be accepted in all the land, but that doesn't NOT mean that the paladin has a slave or will not fight to have slavery removed. Even if the slaves are evil goblins and kobolds.

The Paladin cannot treat Orcs differently from Humans. Both can be redeemed, both are capable of the same thing. Reason Being: If that criminal was in a dungeon off somewhere, and this was the only evil act that the paladin knows of about this character when he comes across the scene, an Orc is killable while a Human is not?

I agreed that you don't kill an orc that you sneak up on either. If it has it's back to you and has not engaged in combat, hasn't even noticed your presence you make it notice by warning it to stop, applying subdual damage or grabbing it.

A dragon actively in combat with something is a much more clear and present danger to life and limb than the perp in this scenario was, heck a dragon in it's natural form with its' "wand" out is more of a clear and present danger than this perp was.

Re sneaking, It was a paladin that had just arrived in town, still had his sword with him and I would assume his armour as well. He managed to tail the perp to the room (he says he followed him) While carrying his sword and stood silently there while the perp laid bare himself and his plan. You are saying that doesn't constitute sneaking ?

 

[jgbrowning]

Otherwise you are giving free range on even dragons to just have them turn their backs on you in order to strip your of paladinhood if you even just attack them. "No sorry can't attack that dragon, he's attacking you but he's unaware of me so I have to wait". To Bad the Dragon is Deaf and is cursed to not be able to see paladins.

That's stretching a bit....

By the way, the reason for the situations I outlined in a cave, or if the criminal was an orc. If in either case, you find it to be ok for the Paladin to kill the orc, then in the case with the non-human, the Paladin Stays a paladin.

Just because you think so, doesn't make it so. Personally I find a large difference between and orc and a human. I think many other people do as well.

A Paladin does not go by the local legitamate authority, he respects them, but he goes by his code of conduct. Period.

To me, respect isn't just saying, "I respect you" it's showing respect through action. It's obeying the laws of the land when possible. Even when the code would deal with an issue differently, if the laws of the land are "adequate" they should be paramount in the paladin's actions. That, to me, is respect. "I slightly disagree with what you're doing, but I will support what you do because I don't disagree enough." I view it as compromise between best and better.

The Paladin cannot treat Orcs differently from Humans. Both can be redeemed, both are capable of the same thing. Reason Being: If that criminal was in a dungeon off somewhere, and this was the only evil act that the paladin knows of about this character when he comes across the scene, an Orc is killable while a Human is not?

In general, yes, the killing of an orc is less damaging than the killing of a human. Orcs are vastly less likely to be redemable given their nature in D&D. Whether it's genetic or environmental or however the DM wants it to work, the Paladin is making a better assessment of the situation if the perp is an orc than a human, just because orcs tend towards evil.

Also, unless orcs are common in this part of the world, an orc would almost certainly signal "Enemy!" moreso than a human would, but not as much as a red dragon would. However, this doesn't mean orcs and even red dragons are sneak-up on and cut their head off material....... To me, it just means that the paladins actions would be more acceptable were it to have been an orc. Even more acceptable were it to have been a red dragon.

joe b.

 

[Li Shenron]

Since the Paladin did not "sneak up" on the criminal, it was not dishonorable. He was in the doorway, and was unnoticed. He never said he was sneaking up, only that he was in the door way, and was able to draw his sword and attack wasn't noticed.

Otherwise you are giving free range on even dragons to just have them turn their backs on you in order to strip your of paladinhood if you even just attack them. "No sorry can't attack that dragon, he's attacking you but he's unaware of me so I have to wait". To Bad the Dragon is Deaf and is cursed to not be able to see paladins.

Sorry to harass your comment, but do you really normally play the game this way?

 

[Khaalis]

Running Tally (to post #158)

Just to be helpful to the original poster...

So far, forgive me if I missed any or misinterpreted any…

For GM Ruling (Paladin BAD, lose them): 16
Patman21967, Crothian, Herremann the Wise, MrFilthyIke, jgbrowning, Zimri, the Jester, Agemegos, SirEuain, epochrpg, dvvega, The Gryphon, Brilbadr, diaglo, Chronosome, monboesen

Against GM Ruling (Paladin GOOD, no loss): 34
Dark Jezter, WayneLigon, Sejs, D+1, Stereofm, Anabstercorian, ThoughtBubble, Firzair, Sammael, d4, dead, Nuclear Platypus, Celtavian, Alzrius, Trickstergod, dren, argo, Alynnalizza, Ogre Mage, Khaalis, Toras, TheAuldGrump, Herpes Cineplex, Plane Sailing, Ulorian, ruemere, FireLance, Kem, glass, Numion, twwtww, Klaus, jeffers, 2WS-Steve

The Fence… (comments but no definitive choice): 15
res, talinthas, Elephant, kolvar, Quirthanon, bodhi, frankthedm, robberbaron, sellars, Creamsteak, Li Shenron, Hemlock Stones, Al, Crass, Zappo

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Re sneaking, It was a paladin that had just arrived in town, still had his sword with him and I would assume his armour as well. He managed to tail the perp to the room (he says he followed him) While carrying his sword and stood silently there while the perp laid bare himself and his plan. You are saying that doesn't constitute sneaking ?

Hm. Maybe the GM should have given the rapist a Spot and a Listen roll to notice the clanking, armor-clad, sword-toting paladin following him. I bet the DC would have been something like 3. Even this 1st-level commoner NPC could have passed it with flying colors.

...oh, but then this whole little morality play wouldn't have happened in the first place, because the rapist wouldn't have let the paladin catch him in the act. You know, I think that's good for another point on the "kick-the-paladin" scoreboard for this scenario.


Incidentally, Zimri, your spirited prosecution of the case against the paladin in this episode makes me wonder: do people actually play paladins in your game? And if so, do you treat them as badly as the player in this case seems to have been treated (you know, setting little traps for them, suddenly springing really restrictive interpretations of their code on them without warning)? Or is this just a devil's advocate gig for you, and you take a more reasonable, less adversarial approach when running your own game?

--
just curious, is all

 

[glass]

I would interpret legitimate authority in this context as meaning authority not at variance with the paladins code or alignment.

In this case, I would say there are 3 possible scenarios:

If the incident took place in a location where the perpetrator would be fairly tried and justly punished, then by striking the man down in anger he committed a chaotic act and a minor violation of his code. Probably a warning from his god would have been in order, maybe in a dream, although loss of powers would not be unreasonable.

If the incident took place in a way inn or other out of the way locale with no real authority, then he acted correctly.

If the incident took place in a locale where the girls treatment was legal, then again he did the right thing. A law which permits actions such as these is not legitimate authority.

Just my €0.02.


glass.

 

[Brilbadr]

sorry, no pity for the paladin
He had plenty of options, he had the initiative. It's called subdual and it's in the game for a reason. Just because the authorities might hang him doesn't mean you get to kill him. More important you can't cause him to change his ways and repent. His soul is lost, the demons win. There are other issues but none of them excuse not taking the less lethal option when it is available. Expedience is the quickest route to evil.

 

[The Gryphon]

Everyone that is saying its was unjust and he should lose paladinhood.

Would it have been different if it was an Orc in the same situation with a human girl in a dungeon?

That isn't the same situation, as the orc can't just be handed over to the local authorities...unless your dungeons have a local authority. Therefore in the dungeon I'd say the paladin would be justified, and would be just as justified if the orc were instead a human.

If on the other hand the orc were doing the same thing in the same place as the human, it deserves the same "justice" as the human. IMO this would mean arrest and trial in most locations, but if the local authority is known to be unlawful or inherently evil the paladin is justified as they are following their moral code. Of course in these societies the paladin may be in for a lot more trouble than they can handle from the "authorities".

In the case specified I'd strip the paladin of their powers until they atoned. Paladin's can only take the law, either moral/religious or secular, into their own hands when they can't reasonably expect those around them to do so.