My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

"Tempting to treat foes as they have treated others, to exact revenge for slain comrades and innocents, to offer no quarter and become merciless. A good character must not succumb to that trap. Good characters must offer mercy and accept surrender no matter how many times villians might betray that kindness or escape captivity to continue their evil deeds" BoED
As an aside, this has got to be the quote from the BoED that I have the most problems with.

...no matter how many times villians might betray that kindness or escape captivity to continue their evil deeds...

Now if they're saying 'villians in general' that's one thing. But damn near sounds like they're saying that no matter how many times Sul-Gar the Reaver has tricked you in the past by surrendering and then getting away later, you always, always have to keep falling for the same trick if he presents it. Like saying because you're good, you must be a sucker.

That annoys me to no end.
 

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The paladin's gleaming blade arced into the man's neck, separating head from body in a spray of crimson blood.

"Damn it!" the little girl cried, as the lifeless body slumped to the ground. "Not again!"

Reaching up into her hair, she pulled loose a rumpled, stained ribbon... and with the shimmer of a desert mirage, the child's form shifted, settling on that of a nude woman holding a nondescript hat.

The woman pushed herself to her feet, snatching a dress from the floor and beginning to struggle into it. Through the entire process, she muttered a running dialogue to herself, apparently oblivious to the paladin in the doorway torn between staring in horror and averting his eyes in embarrasment.

"Every time, Cynthia," she said, "every time, you say to yourself 'No more priests. This was the last one.' But then another one comes along, with his 'I have these urges, and I'm afraid I'll hurt some poor child, and so if you could just...' And you think 'Well, if it will keep him from doin' it for real, and it ain't like you don't need the money...' And every time, wham!, some bloody paladin comes stickin' his nose in."

Running her hands down her body to smooth out the wrinkles in the dress, Cynthia sighed. "I gotta start insisting on a room with a lock."

"Hey, honey," she added, finally taking notice of her 'saviour' with his dripping sword, "would you mind checkin' his purse for me? He owes me a hunnert-fitty for the hour, but I don't wanna get blood on my dress..."

"Heh," she chuckled, as she noticed the symbol proudly emblazoned on the paladin's tunic. Her eyes flicked to the corpse. "Now that's irony for you."

-----

Now here's a question. Who are all these people who play paladins, and don't think to shell out a thousand gold for a Phylactery of Faithfulness?

In any even remotely shades-of-grey game, that would be on my paladin's wish-list well ahead of a magic longsword...

-Hyp.
 


Man this thing keeps going, and going, and going.

While I still don't think I agree with the Paladin be stripped of his powers. Let's think about what is next.

If you were said paladin and you thought you were doing a great service, and your god took away your paladinhome, What would you do?

Try to atone.
Wonder if you could better serve mankind by not being a paladin.
Look into another religion.
Other.

This could lead to some great Role-Playing, but unnecessary rp'ing, IMO.

I have a NPC in my current game that is Half-Orc. His mother was orc, his father was human. The human raped the orc on a wild binge of raping and pillaging. All the children were killed in the orc village. When the half-orc was born, he was given up to the city of humans. A Brave relative, (A retired paladin), tookt he half-orc child as his own. This half-orc grew up very knightly in his ways. (He is now a LG Fighter). He roams the region, looking for any children in need, and goes out of his way to aid any he can. He is barred from being a Paladin within the city, though he strives for 'atonement' even when none is needed. My feeling is he may be better at this job as a fighter, only because of what some here say about paladins. Perhaps as a fighter worrying more about the safety of a kid is more important than honor and turning suspects into authority, as some would suggest Paladins do.

Of course, Alignment in this game has always been suspect at best. Good vie Evil should always be the caveat.

One is not refused entry to 'heaven' for being chaotic, but they sure are for being evil.

Sorry for rambling.
 

Hypersmurf said:
The paladin's gleaming blade arced into the man's neck, separating head from body in a spray of crimson blood.

"Damn it!" the little girl cried, as the lifeless body slumped to the ground. "Not again!"

Nice scenario. But if Vindicator's GM tries to pull one like that after giving an OOC warning that the villain was a lowly commoner I'd call it really raw.
 

Alynnalizza said:
If you were said paladin and you thought you were doing a great service, and your god took away your paladinhome, What would you do?

A god can't take away a paladin's paladinhood. So long as the paladin obeys the restrictions of that class it is his or her righteousness, not the whim or favour of his or her god, that provides paladin abilities. Contrariwise, a god is not able to grant paladin powers to a character who does not qualify for the class.

See the PHB, chapter 3, "Paladin" section, under the heading 'religion'. A paladin doesn't need to have a [particular] god, only to be righteous.
 

1.) Always talk to your DM before playing a paladin: What are paladins in general like in his game? What is different about paladins of this specific god? Would it be okay if I made a paladin who acted this way? In some games, all paladins are primarily soldiers who eradicate evil (a view, I might add, probably closer to the historical models such as the Knights Templar and Hospitaliers); in others they are compassionate and merciful, seeking to redeem evil when possible. Put another way, some paladins emphasize Law and some emphasize Good. Or as Velendo might put it, some have bricks of smiting; others, bricks of protection. My personal preferrence is for somewhere in the middle, but with Good over Law.

In some campaigns, both interpretations are equally valid, depending on the players and gods in question. One interesting concept that I saw recently on the boards was a paladin who, upon seeing a guy attacked in a bar fight, would heal the guy to full, hand him a table leg or other such weapon, and send him back into the fight with a shove and a word of encouragement. Sepalchrave's story hour has another interesting view; it should be required reading for paladin players and philosophy students.

2.) I wish Gary Gygax had used the term "Orderly" instead of "Lawful".

3.) Did your paladin act in a Good manner? Sure.

4.) Did your paladin act in a Lawful manner? Nope.

Suppose a modern police officer came upon a molester in a similar situation. He wouldn't shoot the man first, and certainly not to kill. First he'd pull out his gun and warn the guy to stop. If the molester didn't comply, he'd warn a second time, possibly adding a warning shot. If he still refused, the cop could wrestle him down or maybe beat him with the tonfa and cuff him. Only if the molester tried to attack the officer or the girl would it be okay for the officer to fire, and he would shoot to maim if possible. (Forgive me if the procedure's a little off, but you get the general idea.)

Granted, the psuedo-Medieval police and courts probably are much less fair and efficient compared to modern ones (except maybe in a high-magic setting). However, your paladin should at least warn him first or knock him out. After all, the molester poses no credible threat to you, and little to the girl with the threat of your sword on him. And after all, your paladin's not supposed to be Dirty Harry. After that, what you should do depends on your campaign and your god. It may be okay to execute him then and there, but probably not.

5.) Is this bad enough for a one-way ticket to no-paladinville? No. It could be the first step down a slippery slope, but a slap on the wrist should be enough to make your paladin see his error. I wouldn't even make you get the Atonement spell. If your paladin has a mentor or some kind of superior, I'd have him gently reprimand you and remind you take greater care in the future. Otherwise, I'd give your paladin a dream where he sees some of the consequences of his actions or a possible future with an evil him if he continues, possibly followed by a short verbal reprimand, and he would temporarily lose his ability to smite until he learned to use it more responsibly.

If your DM ends up taking your paladinhood, he's being unreasonable. You might as well go all the way and become a blackguard. You get an extra 2 smite goods/day, Lay on Hands for yourself and you fiendish servent, and sneak attack +1d6 for your paladin levels. :D
 
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Agemegos said:
Nice scenario. But if Vindicator's GM tries to pull one like that after giving an OOC warning that the villain was a lowly commoner I'd call it really raw.

A priest doesn't have to be a Cleric.

-Hyp.
 

Though I do not agree with the DM's view of paladins, he gave an OOC warning and this is the path the character chose. Think of it as the world paused, the deity told the paladin "This isn't a good idea", and the paladin still went ahead with it. For that reason I agree with your DM. I also agree there should be consequences.

Now being alumni of Rat Bastard U I cannot understand why DM is throwing away such a great opportunity. Take away your powers? That's being much too nice. Will the church have some sort of trial or review the paladin's actions? What will the community think of the god now knowing of his swift justice? Will the church have a conflict between the lawful and good fractions? Will it tear the church apart? How will the paladin handle knowing he was the source of this conflict? And why won't the god give a clear direction to either group? Is it that he is caught up in his own duality?

All of the arguments needed for multiple fractions within and outside of the church are laid out in this thread. There is enough material here for an entire campaign! Actually this is very similar to Sepulchrave's story hour, which if I remember correctly started due to a question about a paladin and his actions....

Good gaming to ya!
 

The Paladin gets his powers from somewhere. In the FR, it's from his deity not from general concensus. The best way to handle this is to roleplay the deity. Did the Paladin's act satisfy the mandate given to him by his deity. It doesn't matter if the Paladin waited or didn't wait, warned him or didn't warn him, brought him to local justice or not or even killed the molestor in front of the victim. Is the Paladin's Deity satisfied? A careful paladin will take certain steps to ensure guilt etc, but if the Paladin's kill was righteous as ruled by his deity all else is irrelevant.

If this was my campaign, and the situation is exactly as described - no subterfuge -- the Paladin doesn't lose his powers. At the core, the Paladin rid the world of an evil man and the world is indeed better off for it. No sucker Paladins for me.
 

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