My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

Okay. I've read all of this thread, and there seems to be a wide variety of opinions - entirely too much information, it seems to me, for what that thread was started for. What Vindicator and his DM seemed to be looking for was a trial, of sorts, so I propose we give it to them:

First, go reread the initial post in this thread. Think it over well. Then go to the other thread in the character of one of your Paladin characters. State your character's name, alignment, and God of allegiance.

The first twelve LG Paladins (I am aware of variant rules and others who call themselves that - only LGs, please.) that come in and sign in will act as a jury.
 

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The fact that this took place in the Forgotten Realms kinda throws a wrench into the paladin not needing a god thing, though normally that flies just fine.

Faerunian paladins must be devoted to a god, as outlined in the FRCS. Realms clerics do too for that matter.
 



I maintain my earlier beliefs: the paladin's wrong not directly because of violation of code of conduct (depends on his god, IMO), but because he had all the evidence in the world to believe that the perp was not acting alone, evidence now wasted with the guy's death.

Now, about GM entrapment...

If this was entrapment, it was hamfisted and should have been wholly expected. Grim and gritty settings shouldn't be magically easier for paladins than for anyone else. Shining armor's not an easy effect when wallowing in filth.

It's also not a real entrapment. I ran a campaign where, after the party thwarted the villainous bard three times straight (first time, he didn't know them; second time, he didn't remember them - really ticked them off, too), the villain did something entirely villainous. While the party was out celebrating their victory, the villain quietly broke into the paladin's home, uncovered the paladin's journal, and read through it. He discovered the paladin had an oh-so-cutesy crush on a woman he'd grown up with, and was trying to wring out the courage to do more than the passive, unrequited love gambit. The paladin had written epic sonnets about how beautiful her eyes were, and had made sure that what little earnings he'd made wound up anonymously on her doorstep. The paladin waxed on and on about how, once the villain lay defeated, our hero would set aside his sword and retire with her. The villain than left the journal open on the beside, to the page he had torn from it, and set a trademark dagger over the book.

When the party found the poor woman, she said that as the bard read her the passages, the paladin's pure words had moved the villain to tears, even as he was cutting out her eyes.

At this point, the paladin was apoplectic. Who wouldn't be? He swore vengeance, asked for (and received) permission from his church to have an extended sabbatical to hunt down this vile fiend. The paladin invited his maimed lover to his stronghold, and set his cohort as her protector in his absence. He sent many messages to her, and all the gold he could spare.

Eventually, of course, he caught up with the bard. By this point, the paladin had sullied but not stained his honor, performing questionable but wholly understandable acts such as threatening one of the bard's accomplices. The bard congratulated the paladin on the journey, then pointed out that while the paladin had been so obsessed with vengeance, he'd ignored dozens of the bard's other operations (incidentally, the bard's motivation for ticking off the paladin was to distract him). Moreover, he pointed out to the paladin that the reason the beloved woman had not written any answering posts was simple: she had hanged herself mere days after the paladin's departure on his quest for vengeance. While the bard may have maimed her, it was the paladin's loving words followed by a callous departure in a time of grief that actually killed her. The paladin refused to believe that he would be responsible for her death in such an event, and reached for his holy avenger, only to find a longsword +2.

In this case, the paladin fell because he attempted to absolve himself of the consequences of his own actions. The paladin picked vengeance over protection, and refused to believe that he was wrong to do so. After all, killing evil is good, right?

It can be, of course. It can also be evil - I don't think anyone here really thinks that a Mafia don orders a rival whacked out of the goodness of his heart. It's simple pragmatism, and that's not the watchword of the heroes.

In all honesty, I don't think it's enough to fight evil, it's more important to protect good, and paladins especially have to take the big picture into account. Vindicator killed one man to save one girl, but by letting this vile, contemptible fiend live, he might have saved hundreds. It's not that he definitely would have or not, it's that he didn't even consider it, he didn't try.

Perfectly understandable, but it fits my definition of an unwillful breach anyday.
 


So Sir Euain, What was the right way through for the paladin in your story ? Persue the bard by more lawful means (not threatening his associates and what not) but his beloved still dies ? Stay with her and let the bard go free (in this case the bard "wins" because he has removed the Paladin as a threat) ? The Bard was fleeing there was no reason to assume he would be back to cause her harm. Chasing the Bard helped him fulfill his vow (defeat villain marry girl and retire). The paladin didn't cause her to die, he didn't share his secret words with her then cut out her eyes, which lead to the depression that caused her death. Would she have still committed suicide had she heard those words and not been victimized and the paladin still went out on his last quest ?

Don't get me wrong I like the story and I think there would be some very interesting things that could have followed in a campaign if you were to devote the time, and be willing to let the paladin be the "star"
 


Zimri said:
So Sir Euain, What was the right way through for the paladin in your story ? Persue the bard by more lawful means (not threatening his associates and what not) but his beloved still dies ? Stay with her and let the bard go free (in this case the bard "wins" because he has removed the Paladin as a threat) ? The Bard was fleeing there was no reason to assume he would be back to cause her harm. Chasing the Bard helped him fulfill his vow (defeat villain marry girl and retire). The paladin didn't cause her to die, he didn't share his secret words with her then cut out her eyes, which lead to the depression that caused her death. Would she have still committed suicide had she heard those words and not been victimized and the paladin still went out on his last quest ?

The proper thing could have been any number of things, but the point of the story wasn't that the paladin had a relatively obvious way out that he didn't take. It was that real entrapment is when the DM lets the player have all the rope in the world to hang his PC with. While I threw out token bones to give the PC a chance to save himself, it didn't really matter. I knew the player would act as I (and most of you, I'm sure) predicted, and an evil bard is precisely the kind of villain that would go for such an under-handed method of dealing with a foe. Therefore, I (and the bard) were the ones who ultimately forced the issue - the entrapment in question.

IF this other DM is guilty of entrapment, he didn't do a very good job. That whole "you're gonna kill him" thing is a warning if ever I saw one.

Don't get me wrong I like the story and I think there would be some very interesting things that could have followed in a campaign if you were to devote the time, and be willing to let the paladin be the "star"

Heh.

What do you mean, 'if'? I'm not on this thread to shill my stuff, so I won't go into any specifics. Suffice it to say that this and other cruel tricks are the mainstay of the game I write for.

I believe Bart's camp counselor said it best: "Gentlemen, to evil."
 

babomb said:
Suppose a modern police officer came upon a molester in a similar situation. He wouldn't shoot the man first, and certainly not to kill. First he'd pull out his gun and warn the guy to stop. If the molester didn't comply, he'd warn a second time, possibly adding a warning shot. If he still refused, the cop could wrestle him down or maybe beat him with the tonfa and cuff him. Only if the molester tried to attack the officer or the girl would it be okay for the officer to fire, and he would shoot to maim if possible. (Forgive me if the procedure's a little off, but you get the general idea.)

He most certanly WOULD NOT! :mad:

The first thing they teach you at the academy is that you only draw your weapon if you are prepared to shoot and you ONLY shoot to kill. Period, end of story. "Shoot to maim" is pure holywood fantasy. There are two very good reasons for this mindset. One: the idea that every cop should be expected to be enough of a marksman to hit the knee of a moving man-sized target under combat conditions is absurd: center of mass is difficult enough. Two: they do not want the cop underestimating the seriousness of his weapon and the lethality of the situation nor do they want him thinking about all sorts of wacky comic-book scenarios when he has enough to worry about trying to decide weither or not to kill another human being in a split second.

You are correct that a cop faced with an unarmed suspect would perfer to use non letheal methods to subdue him. But then again, police recieve a great deal of tranning and specalized equipment for non letheal force, the only core class that can say that is monk, not paladin. Fruthermore if a police officer were confronting the suspect alone, as this paladin was, he would probably choose to draw his weapon instead of rush in and wrestle him because he has no idea if the suspect has accompliaces elsewhere or if there is some other unknown factor (there is a posibility nobody has brought up in this thread: the paly didnt' know if the guy had friends. Could he take the chance?) and if the suspect so much as twitched towards the girl or made any kind of threatening gesture towards the officer he would probably shoot the suspect. Once again, officers are trained to shoot even an unarmed man before letting him close the distance with him. Why? Because a gun is a liability in melee. You would not believe how many officers are killed with their own weapon every year.


I apologize for this little thread hijack but the whole "shoot to maim" thing is a pet peeve of mine. The more people who believe that garbage the fewer who understand what an officer-involved shooting really looks like.

[/RANT]
 

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