D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[carkl3000]

Deleted

 

[carkl3000]

5% of players who used D&D Beyond played a halfling when that survey came out. It's not that only 5% of people thought that halflings were a good idea and everyone else said they weren't or were meh on them. The poll wasn't "what races do you think are cool or that should be included," to which only 5% responded with halflings. It was a survey of who was playing what races and classes on D&D Beyond at that time. (And, it should be noted, D&D Beyond only accounts for a fraction of actual D&D players.)

... I'm not sure if anyone has pointed out yet that a large fraction of character builds on D&D beyond are likely optimizer builds that often begin with variant human. I wonder what will happen to the number of humans appearing there now that custom lineage is available. (but granted, behind the Tasha's paywall.)

 

[Don Durito]

... I'm not sure if anyone has pointed out yet that a large fraction of character builds on D&D beyond are likely optimizer builds that often begin with variant human. I wonder what will happen to the number of humans appearing there now that custom lineage is available. (but granted, behind the Tasha's paywall.)

That is supposed to be controlled for by only counting data for characters that are levelled up over time and whose hit point totals change.

Whether that is successful or not I have no particular opinion.

 

[bedir than]

Yeah, how could a game about making a fantasy world to adventure in involving making a simulated world?



Really? Huh. I was pretty sure that it was @Neonchameleon who insisted on giving the halflings a bonus to dexterity. That's the only aspect of the "racial make-up" being used in this thought experiment. Sorry for forcing you to use the Racial bonus to dexterity @Neonchameleon , we can go back to the commoner statblock in the monster manual that has all 10's and gets +0's to everything. That way we aren't doing things the wrong way, that I'm forcing you to do.

If my memory has served me correctly you've also insisted that every non-player elf uses magic every day, something that also isn't part of the NPC block

 

[Don Durito]

That is supposed to be controlled for by only counting data for characters that are levelled up over time and whose hit point totals change.

Whether that is successful or not I have no particular opinion.

If there is a distortion in the data it's more likely, I think, to be that the DnDBeyond users represent a more hardcore fanbase than the average user. They are after all willing to pay money for something that can very easily be done with pencil and paper.

This would possibly tend to bias the proportions toward a higher likelihood of the more exotic rather the more common PHB races. Although this may be pulled back somewhat by the fact that some things are free. In the case of things that are both free and exotic, like I believe Genasi are (based on a post earlier in this thread) the distortion could well be significant

 

[HomegrownHydra]

If there is a distortion in the data it's more likely, I think, to be that the DnDBeyond users represent a more hardcore fanbase than the average user. They are after all willing to pay money for something that can very easily be done with pencil and paper.

This would possibly tend to bias the proportions toward a higher likelihood of the more exotic rather the more common PHB races. Although this may be pulled back somewhat by the fact that some things are free. In the case of things that are both free and exotic, like I believe Genasi are (based on a post earlier in this thread) the distortion could well be significant

Another thing is that I think the data that gets released is from those people who have purchased access to all character options. If that's the case it isn't even representative of all D&DBeyond players let alone all D&D players in general. So the proportion of halflings players is likely greater than 5 or 6 percent.

 

[Hussar]

/snip​

So if you fold two races with skin and hair together you get scales? Interesting approach to biology there.

Whoosh, now there's a point sailing way over someone's head. Several points in fact. But, hey, that's been par for the course after all. I mean this last gem, that's just a perfect ecapsulation. Because, obviously, in context to what I was talking about, which, I believe, was your idea about mixing halflings and gnomes together, I mean in a biological sense.

You're not even trying to argue in good faith now. Yup. Time to unsubscribe from the thread. Just not worth it.

 

[Hussar]

Well, if you actually showed that you don't hate halflings instead of just claiming you don't but in all ways acting like you do, then maybe you wouldn't get so drunk.

/snip

I believe, I think, that I asked politely you not respond to my posts because you repeatedly ascribe motives to me. You apologized and stopped. Then, a little bit later, you right back to it. So, don't worry, I'm unsubbing the thread very soon, so, you are free to have the last word. But, you do realize the irony of your argument right? "You just hate halflings, so, that's why you want them gone" works exactly the same in reverse. "You only want halfings in the game because YOU like them and you feel it's perfectly fine to force your preferences onto other poeple." It's a ludicrous point to make, and it's pretty much identical to every single response you've made to me. It's dismissive and rude. Please stop.

 

[pemerton]

Do Halflings in 5e still often have dogs? (Didn't they in at least one edition?)

The AD&D MM. I never really tried to make sense of it, though. (I would have thought that for some of those fierce dogs Halfings would = food!)

 

[lingual]

But, you do realize the irony of your argument right? "You just hate halflings, so, that's why you want them gone" works exactly the same in reverse. "You only want halfings in the game because YOU like them and you feel it's perfectly fine to force your preferences onto other poeple."

This is the big disconnect. WOTC obviously wants halflings in the PHB. I know because they put halflings in the PHB. You feel very strongly about making changes to their game that they design and own the creative rights to so you really should be trying to convince them. The vast majority of tables that dislike halflings probably just don't include them in their own games. These tables are not trying to change the status quo and the enjoyment of other tables who do like halflings.

 

[pemerton]

If there is a distortion in the data it's more likely, I think, to be that the DnDBeyond users represent a more hardcore fanbase than the average user. They are after all willing to pay money for something that can very easily be done with pencil and paper.

This would possibly tend to bias the proportions toward a higher likelihood of the more exotic rather the more common PHB races. Although this may be pulled back somewhat by the fact that some things are free. In the case of things that are both free and exotic, like I believe Genasi are (based on a post earlier in this thread) the distortion could well be significant

I doubt the soundness of this inference. Based on admittedly very limited and anecdotal evidence, I think there are people who are playing on D&D Beyond but are far from hardcore, and are not paying (I assume there is a way for someone who is paying to share an account, b/c my daughter has played on D&D Beyond without having paid anything).

Her party of very new players started with one Elf (her), one Dragonborn, one Goblin, one Gnome and one Halfling. The Halfling died after a couple of sessions and was replaced by a Genesai.

 

[pemerton]

Time to unsubscribe from the thread. Just not worth it.

I'm unsubbing the thread very soon

But then you'll have no chance of getting the million bucks! I'm in this thread for life!

 

[Yaarel]

Elves are mages − fullcasters and gishes − by both nurture and nature.

It's pretty straightforward throughout all of D&D since 3x that Intelligence is for learned spells and Charisma is for innate.

The cantrip of the High Elf is apparently Innate Spellcasting, as is the Drow Elf cantrip.

The Monster Manual has a number of creatures whose Innate Spellcasting uses Wisdom or Intelligence. For example. Githyanki uses Intelligence for Innate Spellcasting but Githzerai uses Wisdom.

The Eladrin in Mordenkeinens bestiary have Innate Spellcasting: Spring and Autumn use Charisma for it, but Winter uses Intelligence for it.

So where is wood elf magic? Or sea elf magic? They don't have any innate magic.

Magic can cast spells. Magic can do magical effects that are not spells. And magic can create nonmagical effects by means of magic. Effects might be temporary or enduring. All of it is magic, and each power source can do all three possibilities.

The elven innate magic appears to define each elven subrace.
• High Elf has Wizard cantrip
• Drow Elf has Dancing Light cantrip and other magics.
• Eladrin Elf has Fey Step.
• Shadar-Kai also has teleportation magic.
• The Sea Elf can breath water, comparing to a level 2 spell. The fish communication seems magical albeit limited.
• I suspect the Wood Elf Mask feature was supposed to be magical (albeit it is mechanically useless). The speed increase compares to the Druid Longstrider spell. These features probably work in an antimagic zone, but the original transformation to gain them was magical.

The Xanathars race feats expect an Elf to keep on improving elven magic.
• Elven Accuracy includes cantrip, Bladesinger, Hexblade attacks that use Int, Wis, and Cha.
• High Elf gains the Fey Step spell
• Drow Elf gains Drow High Magic
• Wood Elf gains Wood Elf Magic

And you'll notice that in the "NPC Stat Blocks" section of the DMG (page 282), where they give you mini-templates to help you create NPCs of non-human races, that elves do not gain any sort of casting, but drow do. And so do tieflings. So apparently D&D assumes that high elves learn their magic and it's not innate, but part of being a drow elf or a tiefling is having innate magic.

The DMG NPC "Drow" specifies the elven subrace. Interestingly, it also specifies the elven magic as "innate" magic.

The DMG NPC "Elf" doesnt specify the elven subrace. But when the DMs do specify subrace, whether High Elf or Wood Elf, they add the appropriate features, including the High Elf cantrip. The DMG refer the DMs to the Players Handbook when creating an Elf NPC. The DMG also says that adding the traits, including High Elf cantrip, wont change the challenge rating.

 

[Yaarel]

The eladrin in Mordenkeinens beastiery have Magic Resistance. As mentioned earlier, the Fey Ancestry trait should properly be Magic Resistance.

For the sake of balance, Magic Resistance can divide up by saves:
• Int-Wis-Cha (compare Gnome)
• Str-Con
• Dex

Then gain the other thirds while leveling.

 

[Oofta]

[I pointed out that you seem to claim halflings pay no taxes]

I never claimed that. You made up the fact that I claimed that, by misinterpreting my point.

So someone hacked into your account and wrote this?

....
But, let us take this a step further, hmm? Let us assume that the humans are protecting all the halfling villages because halflings are just part of the landscape of the human areas. Wouldn't... humans ask for something in exchange? Like, if humans are fighting and dying to keep halflings safe, wouldn't the humans turn the halflings and say "since we are protecting you, you should give us something in compensation"? I mean, this is a pretty significant thing, that the halflings are relying on human protection, and yet there is not a single thought being put into what the humans get out of it, except that it is an unintended consequence because halflings are settling fertile land that could be used by human farmers...

I see no way to interpret that as anything but not paying taxes, not contributing to the defenses of whatever region they live in. It may not literally be coin, it could be goods or other services of course.

Shortbows are fine weapons. Harder to use. Crossbows are point and shoot. Also a light crossbow is a 1d8 compared to the shortbows 1d6



Useless against a dedicated party of armed raiders, that the math shows us would take 6 to 7 shots on average to take down? Hmmm, yeah. I don't think I'm in a good situation where I die in one blow but the other guy can take 7. Also, the range issue. 30 ft is very close compared to 80ft.



No. Light Crossbows are simple weapons. Weapons of war would be martial weapons, that is why they are called "martial" meaning "of or appropriate to war"

In the 1700's to 1800's it was not unusual for a pioneer family to have a rifle. Why is it so bizarre and strange for the halflings to have a DnD world equivalent? Unless you think the designers misplaced light crossbows and they actually aren't simple weapons?


And, thank you for again proving you never read my posts. I have never said that halfling commoners are unable to protect themselves but human commoners are. I hold human commoners to the exact same standards.

Also, "small homes" are not the defense people seem to think they are. And they aren't underground, they are hills. They are just sod houses with wooden walls under the sod, and built round. They don't burrow multiple feet deep.

Ultimately I simply see no reason why halflings would be less able to defend themselves than humans. If they live in a dangerous area, they could possibly set up more effective defenses than humans. In most cases? In most cases they'll support the local government and let them provide the majority of defenses. Like most people in settled lands have always done.

The majority of people, human and halfling alike, live in settled areas where they don't have to worry about defending themselves because there are no roving bands of gnolls. If there are, there's always adventurers running around who are capable.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The AD&D MM. I never really tried to make sense of it, though. (I would have thought that for some of those fierce dogs Halfings would = food!)

Um…it’s pretty easy to raise dogs to like and protect and regularly cuddle with cats.

I’m pretty sure that little people don’t have much trouble raising guard dogs.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Whoosh, now there's a point sailing way over someone's head. Several points in fact. But, hey, that's been par for the course after all. I mean this last gem, that's just a perfect ecapsulation. Because, obviously, in context to what I was talking about, which, I believe, was your idea about mixing halflings and gnomes together, I mean in a biological sense.

You're not even trying to argue in good faith now. Yup. Time to unsubscribe from the thread. Just not worth it.

I think my irony meter just exploded at being told by you in this thread that points were sailing over my head and told I wasn't even trying to argue in good faith in this thread.

The suggestion you made about gnome + halfling = kobold was utterly ridiculous at all levels. And I'd just demonstrated why kobolds have a very different appeal from halflings to the point the biology is almost less ridiculous than the thematics.

 

[Chaosmancer]

They didn't need to. They went to bed independently of the gnolls. In their homes, under the ground. Which are fortified. Some of then are up reading or arguing with people on the internet.

Nobody ever stays up past sundown huh? No one ever has to go and check the animals, or anything else.

I'll give it to you though, because this means that they are asleep and have no advanced warning at all.

Reinforced doors. And once broken then what? The gnolls start crawling? Because the ceilings are about 3'6" high.

And I guess the doors are always reinforced in this area. And in every halfling town. Funny how these laid-back people have fortresses for homes, with iron-banded doors and thick bars to lock the,

But, once the door is broken, the gnoll stoops in and starts going through the house, yes. Squeezing rules allow an 8ft creature to move through a 2.5 ft space (that's when the space is considered small) so nearly 4ft is an imediment, but not to the point of a belly crawl.

Let's set the earth on fire. Great plan there.

Oh, so the entire interior of a halfling home is dirt? Man, I thought they were creatures of comfort like hobbits, whose inside of their homes were wooden. And that they'd have wooden furniture, and clothe drapes.

Good to know they have nothing flammable in their homes and it is all dirt.

If living in hostile country and expecting raiders of course. They're solid and reinforced. You think they wouldn't reinforce their doors if expecting gnolls?

I see. So halflings would prepare defenses in case of an attack. They might plan for an attack, train a little, maybe put together a militia.... oh wait.

And, yeah, I realize that we now have these heavily reinforced doors, but how are you concealing the doors as well? They weren't concealed before, heck they weren't heavily reinforced either. We have gone from "they'd close their doors" to "They'd close their heavily reinforced and concealed doors" all because I pointed out that a gnoll can break down a door.

Do yourself a favour. Try crawling through 3' high tunnels and then fight. Especially when the layout was designed so you can be poked in the side with spears. Gnolls, to move through halfling burrows aren't just squeezing but simultaneously squeezing and crawling (which means that they count as not just squeezing but also prone).

Sure the game mechanics allow it - but I want you to look at the physics. How are they carrying their spears while crawling? This definitely counts as a fortified position - which gnolls explicitly do not attack.

Wait, "designed so you can be poked in the side with spears." "everything is dirt"

Are you picturing a goblin warren or a kobold tunnel system? I thought we were talking about a house that was partially buried, like you see in the hobbit movies. You know, one of these

But what you seem to actually be describing is closer to this

With bolt holes for halflings to shove spears through. Also, fun things about tunnels like this, they were used in real life. Gnolls are tall, but they also walk hunched over, and they have backward bending legs, so their knees wouldn't be in their chest as much. So, it could be argued they "fold up" better than this guy

If a crawling gnoll is killing two halflings per round then we have extremely stupid halflings.

Or a gnoll ability called "rampage" that allows them to move and reach a second target then make an attack.

But, I guess since you are picturing a series of death tunnels instead of a house, that could explain the confusion

Yay. Because halflings have large glass windows in gnoll country. You have assumed extremely stupid halflings.

Or just basing it off the artwork we have?

And you seemed to have made the assumption that this is "Gnoll Country" that the gnolls are an expected, monthly thing that everyone knows to plan for. Gnolls are nomadic raiders, who can spring up unexpectedly.

Now, I suppose you could say that every halfling village near a border would not have windows, have reinforced, iron-banded doors, an extensive tunnel system, plenty of lamps to actually see because they are underground and don't have darkvision, and on and on and on. But. this was a normal halfling community when we started. And now, you've morphed it into a this complex death trap with no weak points.

Is this really how you view halfings?

It's not the rules, it's the physics. And no they aren't helpless - just comparatively easy targets. Crawling and vulnerable to being stabbed in the backside. And because under the mechanics they are both crawling and squeezing they move slooowly.

Stabbed in the back by what? How did the halflings asleep in their beds get behind the vicious monster coming through their front door?

Oh wait, I know.

All halfling warrens have secret entrances built into the walls, so the halfings can sneak around invaders and stab them from within the walls, right?

And, I never denied they were easier to hit, they are just also, in melee range, and can kill a halfling in a single blow.

Yes, because humans have a noted affinity for slings across multiple editions. And are explicitly community minded. Oh wait.

Humans are community minded. And the halflings have no special affinity for the sling in this edition. So, nothing in your reasoning prevents humans from doing the same.

Please stop with the inventions. Slings are not the best way to defend yourself. Their main benefit is that they are easy to carry from day to day. So if you're a relatively egalitarian community with everyone pitching in it's a good way to ensure everyone can. If you're a more formal race that likes hierarchies you're more likely to go for militias.

"I carry a gun for self-defense" you've heard that right? Self-Defense?

If slings are so easy to carry day to day, and can protect you from dangerous surprise monsters, why wouldn't people carry them? You seem to think that once people create a hierarchy then the community can't band together, but that's false, incredibly so actually.

You seem to have this idea that for humans and the other "big races" it is "every man for himself" but that isn't true. Yes, some people may run, but that's not what everyone does. And the individual idea of being able to protect yourself is a powerful one.

 

[Oofta]

I think my irony meter just exploded at being told by you in this thread that points were sailing over my head and told I wasn't even trying to argue in good faith in this thread.

The suggestion you made about gnome + halfling = kobold was utterly ridiculous at all levels. And I'd just demonstrated why kobolds have a very different appeal from halflings to the point the biology is almost less ridiculous than the thematics.

The idea that kobolds and halflings are virtually the same because they share one attribute in common just shows how little they understand what makes the different races unique. It's like saying we might as well combine dragonborn and elves because they both non-human humanoids that are medium in size.

You (literally) can't argue with logic like that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And yet I've pointed out a way that halflings aren't just like humans. And it's visibly reflected in the slings they are using. Humans normally organise hierarchically with a militia and defaulting to people in charge. Halflings are more community minded which is why they run the approach of all halflings carry slings.

You have just suggested that if it's that effective a strategy all humans should carry slings. Something humans basically haven't done. If you change the way humans work to make them more halfling-like and less like real world humans then no wonder you think halflings are just like humans.

And neither have halflings in 5e. Remember, the word "sling" has never once appeared in any 5e material related to halfligns.

You have invented this idea that every halfling carries a sling, to show their simple, community-oriented approach to defense, but then you vehemently deny that anyone else could do the exact same thing.

You seem to have this idea that somehow humans don't build communities that help each other out, while at the same time, every halfling is a selfless defender of others (while still all hiding in their own homes) and all based around a concept you have homebrewed into the game.