D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Chaosmancer]

It is amusing to me that I can go away for a few months, come back, and the same debates are going on.

I'm still back on page 8, reading stuff from the weekend, but a thought occurred to me and I decided to share it now before I forgot about it.

What are the origins of the halflings in the world?

See, I remember a lot of the different mythological beginnings of the races. Dwarves were forged by Moradin who breathed life into them. The Elves were formed from Corellon's blood which was spilled fighting Gruumsh. Orcs came from the same place and time. Drow came from the split between the Elves, when Lolth betrayed Corellon. Duergar came when Mindflayers led astray and enslaved a clan of dwarves. Gnomes were born from Gems and the laughter of Garl Glittergold.

Humans don't typically have an origin, usually they are "from another world" to imply that they are just us from our world. At least, I remember that happening a lot in Faerun.

But... what about the halflings?

Well, since a lot of this stuff is from the Forgotten Realms, I decided to look there first. And when I looked up the halfings on the FR wiki... well, this wasn't exactly inspiring.

"Halfling history was, by and large, like the race, unremarkable. With the exception of the Strongheart nation of Luiren, halflings did not even have a unified culture to call their own. Records and evidence seemed to indicate that halflings, as a race, only appeared fairly recently, and after the appearance of the creator races, around the same time as dwarves, elves, and giants."

That's... annoying. And frankly, following up on Luiren I'm not impressed.

"Luiren was known as the land of the halflings since its population was almost completely comprised of their race. It was a small kingdom with a population of about 840,000 inhabitants in 1372 DR ruled by the halfling theocrat Faran Ferromar. Travelers to Luiren were often surprised to find the locals adventurous and bold as opposed to the fat and quiet halflings one could find elsewhere"

And that is literally the most information on the main page for Luiren. Society tab just says they spoke a language, history just tells us that the Spellplague destroyed the place. So, in summary, "It existed, halflings there were adventurous and not fat and quiet, then it was destroyed". That is some... really poor lore, for what the halfling page tells me was literally the only unique halfling culture in the world.

But, maybe I can find something by looking up the goddess? Surely Yondalla as their patron has something to latch onto?

Nope. Nothing. A blurb about her temples being incredibly rare and the few that do exist being basically hidden supply caches, and that is it.

Now, I know. This is just the Forgotten Realms wiki, it isn't a real source book or anything, but this is a usually quite well maintained site that gives a lot of information about various Realms lore. And the halfling lore is basically... non-existent. They have no culture, they have no origin, their religion is barely existent. They just... exist.

And this brings me back to some of the things said early in this thread. If you want to make something in a world, you need to have some inspiration. You need something to spark and grab onto and say "hey, this is neat, I wonder if". And halflings don't have that. Sure, yeah, someone is going to bring up Bilbo, or Frodo, or Samwise Gamgee... but those aren't halflings. Those are Hobbits from LoTR. I shouldn't have to have read JRR Tolkien's work to enjoy Dungeons and Dragons, so if the only inspiring things about halflings are that people who like LoTR like them... that's a problem.

And the other arguments I've seen tend to be so.... bizarre.

"Halflings love comfort"... doesn't everyone? I mean, sure, dwarves love a hard days work. But they enjoy coming home to the hearth, kicking off their boots and enjoying a flagon of alcohol too. That's comfort. Gnomes are very defined by their strong community bonds. Elves live in comfort. Humans like being comfortable.

They are pastoral? Okay.... so are humans? Human farmers are more common than even halfling farmers in Fantasy. It doesn't feel defining in the way that people seem to want it to be.


And I think, if we start looking outside of DnD and Tolkien... I see Gnomes far far far more often than halflings. If a race ends up more than "short human" they tend to lean towards more tools, or otherwise using science and technology to make up for their small stature. Or magic. Because that makes sense to us. That's what humans did. We used technology to overcome our natural limitations, so we can imagine a group of people smaller and weaker than us doubling down on that same path, because we know it would work.

And that ends up being an interesting story. Which is why I think I see it so often.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I guess I just don't get it.

I don't know when things like Innocence, Authenticity, Tranquility, friendship, just plain being comfortable and in harmony with one's self and surroundings became such UNheroic concepts. But clearly, they simply are not anymore for large sections (or generations, at this point) of fantasy players. Clearly if one isn't a moody broody dark misunderstood antihero, or some manganime uber-powered and proportioned mega-man, there's just no point to going on adventures or playing a fantasy RPG.

I figure this was written a few days ago, but the thread is still active and this is something that I think is worth addressing. Sorry if I retrod old ground.

Why is "I don't feel like halflings fit" = "Innocence, Authenticity, Tranquility, Friendship, being comfortable and being in harmony with thyself and thy surroundings are unheroic and terrible qualities"?

Top of my head, Cloistered Elven Cleric who has only expeirenced the wider world through books and tales of heroism. Are they not innocent? Are they not authentic? What makes you say that they don't value friendship, tranquility, harmony and being comfortable?

A forest gnome who grew up in an idyllic woodland village. Same questions, why do they lack innocence? What makes them so false as to inauthentic? Can they not be friendly, enjoy the comforts of home, and seek harmony with their surroundings and themself?

You list off a bunch of personality traits, then act like ONLY halflings can have those traits. Like a rejection of halflings is a rejection of anything except grimdark antiheroes and ubermensch super-humans. But that is blatantly false, and a massive strawman.

For me, personally, part of the problem with Halflings is that they are nothing beyond these things. I can play an elf who is a lot of different things, but playing a halfling who isn't bucolic and childlike starts meaning that I am going against the only defining thing for Halflings.

Here is another fun little thing. Elves can be exceptionally prideful, looking down on the other races. Dwarves can hold grudges and nurse resentment for hundreds of years over the slightest insult. Humans can be too ambitious and greedy, wrecking the surrounding lands.

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings? I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any. Sure, we can add in "small town xenophobia" but that directly contradicts their position as being incredibly hospitable. Are we going to try and say "They are so innocent and trusting, that is their flaw?". That's a false flaw. It is like someone saying "I'm so beautiful that is causes me problems." That isn't a real personality flaw.

In my particular setting/world, I just group up some other critters so Halflings have the same diversity and options as the other "big four" species for PCs. Dwarves have a few "sub-races" that are both cultural and magical differences. Elves, of course, have the whole High-Wood-Drow thing going since the dawn of D&D/fantasy TTRPG time.

SO there are the "normal" pastoral tolkienesque halfling folk. Small. Stealthy. Festive, foodie, fun whimsical guys who love a well-crafted coat and a warm bed.

There are, right there in the 1st Monster Manual, Brownies. The "earthy" fey offshoot Halflings who went to the Land of Faerie eons ago and now can (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not) move back and forth to the material plane setting. Helping out do-gooders...or not just making mischief...with their limited magical powers.

Then, there are the evil underground assassiny shadow-magicky halflings that humans simply call "Dark Creepers" [they have an in-game in-world name as a species other than that, of course]. These were "normal halflings" once. Lured by greed and envy of the wealth and power of other species to the depths of the subterranean world, and enslaved to an evil overlord [a "wizard" or some other power depending on the rumor/legend being told of their origins]. Corrupted and tainted by the callous, dark emanations that pervade all the Underworld. Now they know nothing but darkness and move with/through it with startling ease.

Hill Dwarf - Mountain Dawrf - Grey Dwarf/Duerger, though I use Derro as the evil underdark dwarves in my setting (and Shield Dwarf and Gold Dwarf and Iron Dwarf, and, and, and...)
High Elf- Wood Elf - Dark Elf/Drow (and Sea Elf and Winged Elf and Moon Elf and Copper Elf and and and...)
Pastoral Halfling - Fae Halfling - Shadow/Dark Halfling. (and I basically stop there.)

Does this make them "interesting" or legit as a PC species? Or give them any more "niche" than ten "kinds" (cultures, genetic offshoots, what have you) of elves and six kinds of dwarves? Probably not.

It's good/fun world setting lore, though. Serves for making fun NPCs and good plot hooks. But the hairfooted jovial venturer -accidental or otherwise- is just as much fun to play, and just as niche in the game world, whether you have fae-magic Brownies and Shadow-Underdark-halflings roaming your world or not, as any dragon-man or half-demon.

I'm sure you've done more with these ideas, but I was kind of struck by them being a bit... repetive isn't the right word.

Your Dark Creepers are just like Darklings or Shadar-Kai or Meazels or a dozen other variations on the same theme of "we are corrupted by darkness and therefore exist in darkness." Heck, you could be describing Goblins with this. And the brownies are just... generic fey tricksters. Which makes them the same as... basically every other fey trickster.

I'm not trying to bash on your ideas, I'm sure you've done more, but I think it highlights the issue to a degree. You tried to make variant halflings and they are just... generic variants we have in a lot of places. They could be human and the only thing that would change is their size.

That is part of the problem as I see it. If I asked people to describe halflings, they would say they are "pastoral farmers who want nothing more than the comforts of home". Maybe they'd throw in some "child-like innocence" as a spice. But, whenever you try and make a variant of the halfling... that's the first thing thrown out. Talenta Halflings from Eberron are nothing like that. Variant halflings quickly become something that is just short and not a halfling. Meanwhile, other races when altered to create a new variant for a new setting, are still very recognizable as themselves. The Mror dwarves are fighting a battle against questions of using flesh-woven tools to fight for ancient glory, or to keep to the old ways. The Aerenti Elves are ancestor worshippers who defy death. Zil gnomes are basically all spies and conspiracy theoriests. But they are still all very recognizable as Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes. They are just taking aspects of the core identity in different directions.

The only other race I feel has this issue is... humans. We don't define humans, on purpose, in the game. Which makes halflings just child-like humans. Which isn't a strong enough niche I don't think. You could literally just play a child. There isn't a halfling story that seems to be uniquely halfling.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You are off base on every single claim in this post.

I figure this was written a few days ago, but the thread is still active and this is something that I think is worth addressing. Sorry if I retrod old ground.

Why is "I don't feel like halflings fit" = "Innocence, Authenticity, Tranquility, Friendship, being comfortable and being in harmony with thyself and thy surroundings are unheroic and terrible qualities"?

Top of my head, Cloistered Elven Cleric who has only expeirenced the wider world through books and tales of heroism. Are they not innocent? Are they not authentic? What makes you say that they don't value friendship, tranquility, harmony and being comfortable?

A forest gnome who grew up in an idyllic woodland village. Same questions, why do they lack innocence? What makes them so false as to inauthentic? Can they not be friendly, enjoy the comforts of home, and seek harmony with their surroundings and themself?

You list off a bunch of personality traits, then act like ONLY halflings can have those traits. Like a rejection of halflings is a rejection of anything except grimdark antiheroes and ubermensch super-humans. But that is blatantly false, and a massive strawman.

This, in turn, is a strawman version of what you are replying to.

For me, personally, part of the problem with Halflings is that they are nothing beyond these things.

False. They are also curious, adventurous, and fiercely loyal without most of the tribalism that makes fierce loyalty so dangerous in humans. There is value in a people who only fight to defend, who enjoy comfort and home and community and are always ready to defend those things, who will, sometimes, go into the Tomb of Horror to find out what's in there, who don't piss themselves when a hill giant comes along and eats their goats, and whose primary "flaw" is simply that few of them become great historical figures because they aren't especially ambitious.

it doesn't matter at all if you get that value, or if you like or dislike them. Other people do get it, and do like them. That's enough. Full stop.

I can play an elf who is a lot of different things, but playing a halfling who isn't bucolic and childlike starts meaning that I am going against the only defining thing for Halflings.

Bologna. You keep reducing halflings from what is actually written about them and then claiming they are bad because they're only the one thing. They are more, explicitly in their writeups.

Here is another fun little thing. Elves can be exceptionally prideful, looking down on the other races. Dwarves can hold grudges and nurse resentment for hundreds of years over the slightest insult. Humans can be too ambitious and greedy, wrecking the surrounding lands.

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings? I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any. Sure, we can add in "small town xenophobia" but that directly contradicts their position as being incredibly hospitable. Are we going to try and say "They are so innocent and trusting, that is their flaw?". That's a false flaw. It is like someone saying "I'm so beautiful that is causes me problems." That isn't a real personality flaw.

Neither do most of the races. Halflings are just folks. That is literally one of the things that is good about them.

I'm sure you've done more with these ideas, but I was kind of struck by them being a bit... repetive isn't the right word.

Your Dark Creepers are just like Darklings or Shadar-Kai or Meazels or a dozen other variations on the same theme of "we are corrupted by darkness and therefore exist in darkness." Heck, you could be describing Goblins with this. And the brownies are just... generic fey tricksters. Which makes them the same as... basically every other fey trickster.

I'm not trying to bash on your ideas, I'm sure you've done more, but I think it highlights the issue to a degree. You tried to make variant halflings and they are just... generic variants we have in a lot of places. They could be human and the only thing that would change is their size.

That is part of the problem as I see it. If I asked people to describe halflings, they would say they are "pastoral farmers who want nothing more than the comforts of home". Maybe they'd throw in some "child-like innocence" as a spice. But, whenever you try and make a variant of the halfling... that's the first thing thrown out. Talenta Halflings from Eberron are nothing like that. Variant halflings quickly become something that is just short and not a halfling. Meanwhile, other races when altered to create a new variant for a new setting, are still very recognizable as themselves. The Mror dwarves are fighting a battle against questions of using flesh-woven tools to fight for ancient glory, or to keep to the old ways. The Aerenti Elves are ancestor worshippers who defy death. Zil gnomes are basically all spies and conspiracy theoriests. But they are still all very recognizable as Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes. They are just taking aspects of the core identity in different directions.

Talenta halflings are hospitable, community oriented, fiercely loyal, readily willing to make one-time strangers part of their family, and fearless. In short, they're halflings.

The only other race I feel has this issue is... humans. We don't define humans, on purpose, in the game. Which makes halflings just child-like humans. Which isn't a strong enough niche I don't think. You could literally just play a child. There isn't a halfling story that seems to be uniquely halfling.

Sure there is. You just can't see past "pastoral", even though there is plenty more than that right there in the books.

 

[Krachek]

I figure this was written a few days ago, but the thread is still active and this is something that I think is worth addressing. Sorry if I retrod old ground.

Why is "I don't feel like halflings fit" = "Innocence, Authenticity, Tranquility, Friendship, being comfortable and being in harmony with thyself and thy surroundings are unheroic and terrible qualities"?

Top of my head, Cloistered Elven Cleric who has only expeirenced the wider world through books and tales of heroism. Are they not innocent? Are they not authentic? What makes you say that they don't value friendship, tranquility, harmony and being comfortable?

A forest gnome who grew up in an idyllic woodland village. Same questions, why do they lack innocence? What makes them so false as to inauthentic? Can they not be friendly, enjoy the comforts of home, and seek harmony with their surroundings and themself?

You list off a bunch of personality traits, then act like ONLY halflings can have those traits. Like a rejection of halflings is a rejection of anything except grimdark antiheroes and ubermensch super-humans. But that is blatantly false, and a massive strawman.

For me, personally, part of the problem with Halflings is that they are nothing beyond these things. I can play an elf who is a lot of different things, but playing a halfling who isn't bucolic and childlike starts meaning that I am going against the only defining thing for Halflings.

Here is another fun little thing. Elves can be exceptionally prideful, looking down on the other races. Dwarves can hold grudges and nurse resentment for hundreds of years over the slightest insult. Humans can be too ambitious and greedy, wrecking the surrounding lands.

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings? I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any. Sure, we can add in "small town xenophobia" but that directly contradicts their position as being incredibly hospitable. Are we going to try and say "They are so innocent and trusting, that is their flaw?". That's a false flaw. It is like someone saying "I'm so beautiful that is causes me problems." That isn't a real personality flaw.





I'm sure you've done more with these ideas, but I was kind of struck by them being a bit... repetive isn't the right word.

Your Dark Creepers are just like Darklings or Shadar-Kai or Meazels or a dozen other variations on the same theme of "we are corrupted by darkness and therefore exist in darkness." Heck, you could be describing Goblins with this. And the brownies are just... generic fey tricksters. Which makes them the same as... basically every other fey trickster.

I'm not trying to bash on your ideas, I'm sure you've done more, but I think it highlights the issue to a degree. You tried to make variant halflings and they are just... generic variants we have in a lot of places. They could be human and the only thing that would change is their size.

That is part of the problem as I see it. If I asked people to describe halflings, they would say they are "pastoral farmers who want nothing more than the comforts of home". Maybe they'd throw in some "child-like innocence" as a spice. But, whenever you try and make a variant of the halfling... that's the first thing thrown out. Talenta Halflings from Eberron are nothing like that. Variant halflings quickly become something that is just short and not a halfling. Meanwhile, other races when altered to create a new variant for a new setting, are still very recognizable as themselves. The Mror dwarves are fighting a battle against questions of using flesh-woven tools to fight for ancient glory, or to keep to the old ways. The Aerenti Elves are ancestor worshippers who defy death. Zil gnomes are basically all spies and conspiracy theoriests. But they are still all very recognizable as Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes. They are just taking aspects of the core identity in different directions.

The only other race I feel has this issue is... humans. We don't define humans, on purpose, in the game. Which makes halflings just child-like humans. Which isn't a strong enough niche I don't think. You could literally just play a child. There isn't a halfling story that seems to be uniquely halfling.

One of the great advantage of past race definition was the “streotype” play they emphasis.
In a role playing game to emphasis some style can be easier if you change your race, and you pretend that all the race behave like this. You are brutal because you are an half orc, or kind and naive because you are a halfling, and most of all it’s a kind of racial imperative that you don’t have to justified. Past DnD race we’re having a kind a catarsis effect.

But no more! Now if you choose a brutal half orc, it’s because of your child hood, or the war, or your choice, and still you can change.... like any human. Indeed new DnD race are human with sharp ear, or big feet, or beard.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, since a lot of this stuff is from the Forgotten Realms, I decided to look there first. And when I looked up the halfings on the FR wiki... well, this wasn't exactly inspiring.

Honestly to me that's the Forgotten Realms more than anything. My go-to kitchen sink fantasy setting is Warhammer Fantasy where they are intentionally a bit of a joke race. But there is actual lore there. And not just jokes, a joke blood bowl team, and a joke artillery piece.

They mostly have little regard for personal property because they are raised communally as a village so they grew up effectively with dozens of brothers and sisters all pinching their stuff. They'll thus both pinch and share with most people the way many siblings do.

The goddess Esmerelda's feast is celebrated throughout the empire. Not because she's revered but because the main devotion is eating pie until you are full so everyone celebrates the feast week.

Halfings and ogres get along surprisingly well (there's an obscure lore reason) and for all they seem weak you often find halfling cooks in ogre camps.

And whatever you do don't tangle with halfling archers. They are as accurate and hard to spot as elves. Most halfings would rather be fat, well fed, and content. But they live right on the edge of vampire lands in hills that were only ironically called fertile until the halfings started farming them. And they still get massive harvests and the ghouls aren't seen roaming the halfling lands.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So you disagree with my feeling. Cool. Feelings are subjective, so a statement like "they feel more organic" is a subjective expression. Are you saying that my subjective feeling is wrong?

Anyhow, I think this runs to the heart of this discussion/disagreement: you are engaging in a logical debate, while I'm positing subjective meta-narratives, so we're running at cross purposes.

But in terms of how our views (and feelings) differ on this, a lot of it might have to do with imprinting and exposure. Meaning, it isn't only about what has existed within D&D, but how we--as individuals--weave together a personal "fantasy mythos" (or in this case, D&D mythos).

I started playing in the early 80s and have read fantasy since, although slowed down by the mid-90s and find that when I feel like reading sf or fantasy, I tend to go for older stuff (mostly before 1990ish). I never got into video games, so wasn't influenced by Warcraft et al. I also have played D&D on and off through the years, and my campaigns tend to have a more "old school" vibe: a blend of Hyborian sword and sorcery and Middle-earthian epic mythos, with a bit of a bunch of other things sprinkled in.

Anyhow, for me I have never gotten into tieflings, dragonborn, and similar races. They have always felt like "add-ons" to the core D&D universe. Strangely enough, probably my all-time favorite RPG and setting is Talislanta, which is about as "non-traditional" as it gets, although it doesn't "feel like D&D."

If we want to look at broader trends and the tradition of D&D outside of our personal experience, we can still see how it has unfolded in different waves and phases. The first wave did not include tieflings or dragonborn, while later waves did. It doesn't make anything more or less part of the D&D tradition, but it may influence how different people view them, depending upon when and what they imprinted to.

As for your statement the importance of tieflings to D&D's future, I cannot say; you could be right, although it also depends upon what you mean by "future." Near future (say, next 5-10 years), sure, absolutely. But today's tieflings might be tomorrow's zorgothians (or whatever). Things change.

Just a thought. Seeing that bolded section.

If you have basically been ignoring the last 30 years of fantasy writers... don't you think that explains why things we feel are established fantasy elements might not resonate with you? I mean, the average DnD player is likely between 20 and 30 years old, and you are saying you don't read or interact with any fantasy except that which is older than the player base.

Of course you feel like things like people with diabolic origins and draconic origins feel like add-ons, they were added in decades ago and people liked them. Now they have become staples. And they have been for a while. I'm not trying to diss older materials, a lot of it is incredibly good, but a lot of stuff written in the past five years is incredibly good too. And thinking of the future of the game, I think it is going to look more towards stuff created in 2000 and beyond than it will 1980 and back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

For me, personally, part of the problem with Halflings is that they are nothing beyond these things. I can play an elf who is a lot of different things, but playing a halfling who isn't bucolic and childlike starts meaning that I am going against the only defining thing for Halflings.

Nope.

The biggest defining thing for a halfling is their size. They are both small and not known for being magically mighty.

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings?

Pray you never find out.

Seriously the common dark side to halfings is gluttony, apathy, and hedonism. And sloth.

I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any. Sure, we can add in "small town xenophobia" but that directly contradicts their position as being incredibly hospitable.

When the Dark Lord arrives they will throw a party for him and his army. With any luck they won't be eaten and the minions will like them. It seems to work for the dangerous lunatics known as adventurers.

The only other race I feel has this issue is... humans. We don't define humans, on purpose, in the game. Which makes halflings just child-like humans. Which isn't a strong enough niche I don't think. You could literally just play a child. There isn't a halfling story that seems to be uniquely halfling.

But that doesn't take away the strength of halfings as adventurers - which is that they are heavily out matched and unsuited to this. They are special because they are the only group that aren't. And halfling towns are great stopping points - both friendly and visibly at least wanting protection. You could literally just replace most races with humans and it would change little.

 

[Mecheon]

Seriously the common dark side to halfings is gluttony, apathy, and hedonism. And sloth.

Honestly I tend to find the common dark side to halflings is mafia. Nice, idyllic village, but its also kept that way and anyone who rocks the boat suddenly finds themselves having a cladstine meeting or an enforcer showing them how tall they truely are without any shins

 

[Chaosmancer]

You are off base on every single claim in this post.

This, in turn, is a strawman version of what you are replying to.

Could you elaborate rather than just telling me I am wrong? I mean, you aren't the initial poster that I am responding too, so what do you see in their post that I am supposedly missing?

False. They are also curious, adventurous, and fiercely loyal without most of the tribalism that makes fierce loyalty so dangerous in humans. There is value in a people who only fight to defend, who enjoy comfort and home and community and are always ready to defend those things, who will, sometimes, go into the Tomb of Horror to find out what's in there, who don't piss themselves when a hill giant comes along and eats their goats, and whose primary "flaw" is simply that few of them become great historical figures because they aren't especially ambitious.

it doesn't matter at all if you get that value, or if you like or dislike them. Other people do get it, and do like them. That's enough. Full stop.

I was being a little bit hyperbolic with "nothing", I think that is obvious, but your points are kind of... off-base.

Curious, that describes gnomes and Humans too. And just about any scholarly individual, or just people who decide to be curious. So, what makes Halfling curiosity somehow special?

Adventurous... again, that describes a lot of people.

Fiercely Loyal? That describes Gnomes and Dwarves to a T. Gnomish communities are incredibly tight-knit, and they don't have a lot of "tribalism" either. And what do we mean by "tribalism"? Do we mean being loyal to your group beyond that of strangers? That kind of just describes being loyal. Being loyal to your friends is just a standard trait.

So, you are following the same problem I found with Steeldragon's post. You are taking character traits and presenting them as racially unique. What makes elves incapable of fighting only to defend? What makes gnomes incapable of enjoying home and community, especially when community is such a massive part of their identity. Just about ANY race that includes adventurers occasionally goes to the Tomb of Horrors, because they are all adventurers.

It really feels like your argument is "why is bad to be a good person who goes on adventures" and I'm left wondering, "what makes halflings different? Everyone can be a good person who goes on adventures."

Bologna. You keep reducing halflings from what is actually written about them and then claiming they are bad because they're only the one thing. They are more, explicitly in their writeups.

I've read the write ups. I tend to find very little beyond those very barebones descriptions. And, I'm also talking about tropes. Like I said, I can play a dozen different types that are very clearly "elf" or "dwarf" but "halfling" really only has one. Maybe two if I count "brave adventurer" as a type casting for them.

Neither do most of the races. Halflings are just folks. That is literally one of the things that is good about them.

I literally described it for Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes, so how can you claim that "most other races" don't have "darker" sides to them? Being "just folk" isn't a description. Human commoners are "just folk" too. That is the problem we keep running into.

Don't know why you are rolling your eyes. I wasn't even talking about your descriptions. Maybe if you gave some context I could respond to actual points.

Talenta halflings are hospitable, community oriented, fiercely loyal, readily willing to make one-time strangers part of their family, and fearless. In short, they're halflings.

Never heard them described as hospitable and community oriented. In fact, I believe that people are afraid to go into the Talenta plains and run into the Halflings, who are quite territorial and don't want outsiders in their homes.

In fact, it is kind of that difference that makes them different from Jorasco Halflings. Who are all about hospitality. Now, maybe I missed some stuff, I could have it is possible... but considering most people wouldn't describe tribal dino-riding nomad warriors as halflings, who are peaceful farmers who want nothing more than a warm fire and a hot meal.... how are they related concepts?

Sure there is. You just can't see past "pastoral", even though there is plenty more than that right there in the books.

And yet every single person I've talked with before now who describes halflings describes them as pastoral. It is the first thing they talk about, all the time. Maybe, again, instead of just saying "you are wrong" you could add something else, like a "you are wrong because of (blank)". Because right now, you aren't giving me anything.

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One of the great advantage of past race definition was the “streotype” play they emphasis.

In a role playing game to emphasis some style can be easier if you change your race, and you pretend that all the race behave like this. You are brutal because you are an half orc, or kind and naive because you are a halfling, and most of all it’s a kind of racial imperative that you don’t have to justified. Past DnD race we’re having a kind a catarsis effect.

But no more! Now if you choose a brutal half orc, it’s because of your child hood, or the war, or your choice, and still you can change.... like any human. Indeed new DnD race are human with sharp ear, or big feet, or beard.

I'm not seeing how being able to play more than a single personality type is a detriment to the game. Something as simple as being either a happy person or a sad person seems like it should apply to more than one race.

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Honestly to me that's the Forgotten Realms more than anything. My go-to kitchen sink fantasy setting is Warhammer Fantasy where they are intentionally a bit of a joke race. But there is actual lore there. And not just jokes, a joke blood bowl team, and a joke artillery piece.

They mostly have little regard for personal property because they are raised communally as a village so they grew up effectively with dozens of brothers and sisters all pinching their stuff. They'll thus both pinch and share with most people the way many siblings do.

The goddess Esmerelda's feast is celebrated throughout the empire. Not because she's revered but because the main devotion is eating pie until you are full so everyone celebrates the feast week.

Halfings and ogres get along surprisingly well (there's an obscure lore reason) and for all they seem weak you often find halfling cooks in ogre camps.

And whatever you do don't tangle with halfling archers. They are as accurate and hard to spot as elves. Most halfings would rather be fat, well fed, and content. But they live right on the edge of vampire lands in hills that were only ironically called fertile until the halfings started farming them. And they still get massive harvests and the ghouls aren't seen roaming the halfling lands.

And that is kind of cool. I've seen bits and pieces of Warhammer Fantasy lore, and it always seems like it is quite well made.

Nope.

The biggest defining thing for a halfling is their size. They are both small and not known for being magically mighty.

Eh, that is literally the most boring trait I can possibly imagine for a race. I mean, Goblins are also small and not magically mighty. Being small isn't really defining enough to make a whole race. It can be A trait, it just shouldn't be THE trait of a race.

Pray you never find out.

Seriously the common dark side to halfings is gluttony, apathy, and hedonism. And sloth.

Nope. Literally never once have I seen hedonism and gluttony applied to halflings. Humans sure, but never halflings.

When the Dark Lord arrives they will throw a party for him and his army. With any luck they won't be eaten and the minions will like them. It seems to work for the dangerous lunatics known as adventurers.

Okay, this completely contradicts the "we are brave and will fight to defend our homes" angle that people constantly ascribe to halflings.

And "appease the guy so he doesn't kill us" doesn't seem like something that wouldn't be done by, say, humans.

But that doesn't take away the strength of halfings as adventurers - which is that they are heavily out matched and unsuited to this. They are special because they are the only group that aren't. And halfling towns are great stopping points - both friendly and visibly at least wanting protection. You could literally just replace most races with humans and it would change little.

Huh?

Why would we want a race for adventuring who are explicitly bad at adventuring? "We are the only group that isn't special, that makes us special" is a tautology. And again, this all seems to be going against what other people have claimed.

And, aren't other villages friendly? I've never been to an unfriendly Elf village. Dwarves are usually quite friendly, unless they have reason not to be. Gnomes are incredibly friendly.


And, finally, I think you would change a lot by replacing various races with humans. If I went to go visit a 500 year old human king, I'm expecting an very different story than if I am visiting a 500 yr old elven king or dwarven king.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You are taking character traits and presenting them as racially unique.

If you think that is the case, you aren’t actually reading either of our posts.

No social trait is unique to any D&D race.