D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Neonchameleon]

Eh, that is literally the most boring trait I can possibly imagine for a race. I mean, Goblins are also small and not magically mighty. Being small isn't really defining enough to make a whole race. It can be A trait, it just shouldn't be THE trait of a race.

Good job no one is making you play one then. Personally the most snooze-festy race I can think of are D&D dwarves. I've never played one and am never likely to play one. But that doesn't mean I want to piss all over a significant number of people's fun by removing them from the game.

The unlikely hero from humble origins is a classic trope for a good reason and halflings take it and turn it up to 11. Do you not recognise it? Do you think the trope is a bad one? Or do you not see how halflings turn it up to 11?

In a setting where every race is special and awesome one not being is distinct.

Literally never once have I seen hedonism and gluttony applied to halflings. Humans sure, but never halflings.

Huh. Weird.

Okay, this completely contradicts the "we are brave and will fight to defend our homes" angle that people constantly ascribe to halflings.

There are different types of fighting. And different types of bravery. If you think that it doesn't take bravery to welcome the Dark Lord and his rotting undead horde warmly with a cheerful party you've not imagined it.

And "appease the guy so he doesn't kill us" doesn't seem like something that wouldn't be done by, say, humans.

Neither does breathing or eating. Let's declare all races that use bathrooms redundant!

Halflings start with little power then turn human traits up to 11.

Why would we want a race for adventuring who are explicitly bad at adventuring?

Are explicitly out matched. And why not? Some people find it fun and something they want to play up. Others want to be small rogues. Both are good.

Why are you trying to police the fun of others?

And, aren't other villages friendly? I've never been to an unfriendly Elf village. Dwarves are usually quite friendly, unless they have reason not to be.

Weird. Dwarves are normally fairly unwelcoming IME and elves often sneer a little and can be painfully polite.

And, finally, I think you would change a lot by replacing various races with humans.

In world building but not PC actions at the table. But long term world building is often silly anyway.

 

[jayoungr]

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings? I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any.

Sure they do. They can be petty, narrow-minded, unimaginative, and stuck in their ways. They can be lazy and unwilling to go without creature comforts. They can be selfish. All those things are in keeping with the classic Hobbit-style halfling society.

 

[Mercurius]

Just a thought. Seeing that bolded section.

If you have basically been ignoring the last 30 years of fantasy writers... don't you think that explains why things we feel are established fantasy elements might not resonate with you? I mean, the average DnD player is likely between 20 and 30 years old, and you are saying you don't read or interact with any fantasy except that which is older than the player base.

Of course you feel like things like people with diabolic origins and draconic origins feel like add-ons, they were added in decades ago and people liked them. Now they have become staples. And they have been for a while. I'm not trying to diss older materials, a lot of it is incredibly good, but a lot of stuff written in the past five years is incredibly good too. And thinking of the future of the game, I think it is going to look more towards stuff created in 2000 and beyond than it will 1980 and back.

I don't "ignore" stuff written within the last 30 years - I didn't say that (re-read the bold part you highlighted; I wrote "I tend to..."). I just pick and choose, and look to the whole of the fantasy tradition - stretching back to the 19th century (and before, if we count fairy tales, folk lore, and myths). There's more fantasy history before 1990 than after (even if fantasy books become more sparse once you hit the '60s or so), and I'm not beholden to the "new and shiny," but like to dig for treasures in the past. But I do read recent stuff, too.

Fantasy is a vast tradition. It didn't start 20-30 years ago, nor did it start with Tolkien. But we're specifically talking about D&D, which goes back "only" 47 years, although with roots much older than that.

And yes, tieflings and dragonborn are--in the history of D&D--"add-ons." This isn't a knock on them, nor am I saying that they shouldn't be part of D&D going forward. And I basically agree with you, that 5E going forward will--by necessity--tend to bias newer forms. But that doesn't mean the old need to be thrown out. I see it less as a linear progression, where old stuff is left behind and forgotten, and more as waves rippling outward, with new stuff emerging, but the old remaining part of the tradition.

Ultimately this whole pro vs anti halfling thing seems a bit unnecessary. Halflings don't need to go to make room for the new. The new can be added on (ahem). That's how traditions develop.

 

[Minigiant]

Is there a common "dark side" to halflings? I'm not saying this because grimdark edge is the only way to go, but a well fleshed out character has flaws, and a well fleshed out society has flaws. But what are the halfling flaws? They... kind of don't have any. Sure, we can add in "small town xenophobia" but that directly contradicts their position as being incredibly hospitable. Are we going to try and say "They are so innocent and trusting, that is their flaw?". That's a false flaw. It is like someone saying "I'm so beautiful that is causes me problems." That isn't a real personality flaw.

Sure they do. They can be petty, narrow-minded, unimaginative, and stuck in their ways. They can be lazy and unwilling to go without creature comforts. They can be selfish. All those things are in keeping with the classic Hobbit-style halfling society.

I think if anything the most inhuman and darkest trait of halfling is their ease of comfort. Halflings, once they find a safe situation, will sit and squat in their position. No ambition. No desire to better themselves. That's why halflings have no kingdoms and few armies. Just bodyguards and sheriffs. They'll sit in human ofdwarven lands happily paying taxes to sit comfortably. There are few halfling masters of any craft but cooking because they just like to eat. Halfling artisans and smiths get go by repetitions not drive.

Even halfling adventurers are not out there to make themselves stronger. Its either defence of their loved ones, gaining new experience, or simply travelling with their buddies. The halfling rogue stops dungeon delving because his companions have stopped.

I would wonder how Underdark halflings would work because they could never get to a comfortable state down there and would focus on leaving the second they were able.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think if anything the most inhuman and darkest trait of halfling is their ease of comfort. Halflings, once they find a safe situation, will sit and squat in their position. No ambition. No desire to better themselves. That's why halflings have no kingdoms and few armies. Just bodyguards and sheriffs. They'll sit in human ofdwarven lands happily paying taxes to sit comfortably. There are few halfling masters of any craft but cooking because they just like to eat. Halfling artisans and smiths get go by repetitions not drive.

Even halfling adventurers are not out there to make themselves stronger. Its either defence of their loved ones, gaining new experience, or simply travelling with their buddies. The halfling rogue stops dungeon delving because his companions have stopped.

I would wonder how Underdark halflings would work because they could never get to a comfortable state down there and would focus on leaving the second they were able.

they are super creepy in that fashion.
nothing beyond comfort, we are fairly certain they have the least artificers of any race.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Could you elaborate rather than just telling me I am wrong? I mean, you aren't the initial poster that I am responding too, so what do you see in their post that I am supposedly missing?

I did elaborate, unless you mean the strawman part, in which case…bro. Seriously, go reread the other posters words that you replied to. They didn’t say what you claim they said.

I was being a little bit hyperbolic with "nothing", I think that is obvious, but your points are kind of... off-base.

No, it isn’t obvious at all. In fact it isn’t apperently at all. You consistently make the same claim with no indication whatsoever of hyperbole until now.

Curious, that describes gnomes and Humans too. And just about any scholarly individual, or just people who decide to be curious. So, what makes Halfling curiosity somehow special?

Adventurous... again, that describes a lot of people.

Fiercely Loyal? That describes Gnomes and Dwarves to a T. Gnomish communities are incredibly tight-knit, and they don't have a lot of "tribalism" either. And what do we mean by "tribalism"? Do we mean being loyal to your group beyond that of strangers? That kind of just describes being loyal. Being loyal to your friends is just a standard trait.

Two things are happening here. I’ll start with the one that pisses me off.

Stop changing what I said and replying to that instead. It’s a BS tactic and you know it.

“Being loyal to your friends” is explicitly not what I said. I talked about being loyal in a way that is fairly rare amongst humans and most D&D races, where halflings are quick to include people from outside thier community in thier loyalty, and making a new person family without reservation. Humanity has a whole sordid history of aggressively refusing to do that. When you reply to this idea with “everyone is loyal to thier friends” you completely misrepresent the point you’re replying to in order to reply to the weakest possible version of an argument.

The second thing happening here is that you have it in your head that anyone is claiming that the traits that define halflings are unique to them. This is a wild assumption with no basis in what is actually being said. Gruff insularity isn’t unique to dwarves. Every trait we imagine for other creatures is an exaggeration of a human trait or an extrapolation of an animal trait, and none of it is unique to one race.

So, you are following the same problem I found with Steeldragon's post. You are taking character traits and presenting them as racially unique.

No.

What makes elves incapable of fighting only to defend? What makes gnomes incapable of enjoying home and community, especially when community is such a massive part of their identity. Just about ANY race that includes adventurers occasionally goes to the Tomb of Horrors, because they are all adventurers.

See above. This is another example of both things. No one said elves can’t have a culture that fights only to defend, and I didn’t say only halflings enter the Tomb, I said halflings might do it out of curiosity. Might a human do the same? Sure! But they’d be an odd person, while the halfling would just be doing a thing that halflings do.

It really feels like your argument is "why is bad to be a good person who goes on adventures" and I'm left wondering, "what makes halflings different? Everyone can be a good person who goes on adventures."

If it really feels that way, it’s because you’re adding things to my arguments that I didn’t say while ignoring what I did say.

I've read the write ups. I tend to find very little beyond those very barebones descriptions. And, I'm also talking about tropes. Like I said, I can play a dozen different types that are very clearly "elf" or "dwarf" but "halfling" really only has one. Maybe two if I count "brave adventurer" as a type casting for them.

That’s because you’re ignoring or dismissing anything that doesn’t fit your conclusion.

I literally described it for Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes, so how can you claim that "most other races" don't have "darker" sides to them? Being "just folk" isn't a description. Human commoners are "just folk" too. That is the problem we keep running into.

You…know there are like a hundred D&D races, right?

Never heard them described as hospitable and community oriented. In fact, I believe that people are afraid to go into the Talenta plains and run into the Halflings, who are quite territorial and don't want outsiders in their homes.

I’ve never read anything like that in the books.

In fact, it is kind of that difference that makes them different from Jorasco Halflings. Who are all about hospitality. Now, maybe I missed some stuff, I could have it is possible... but considering most people wouldn't describe tribal dino-riding nomad warriors as halflings, who are peaceful farmers who want nothing more than a warm fire and a hot meal.... how are they related concepts?

LOL come on, man. I begin to question whether you are arguing in good faith.
Jorasco and Ghallanda halflings come from Talenta.

And yet every single person I've talked with before now who describes halflings describes them as pastoral. It is the first thing they talk about, all the time. Maybe, again, instead of just saying "you are wrong" you could add something else, like a "you are wrong because of (blank)". Because right now, you aren't giving me anything.

Oof.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure they do. They can be petty, narrow-minded, unimaginative, and stuck in their ways. They can be lazy and unwilling to go without creature comforts. They can be selfish. All those things are in keeping with the classic Hobbit-style halfling society.

Again, I have never seen this portrayal of halflings. Not once.

I've seen it for humans, or generic merchant or lord types, but never halflings. I'm not saying it is illogical, I'm saying that I can point to quite a few different instances of seeing the "dark side" of elves or dwarves, and I have never once seen that presented for halflings. In DnD or in other media.


I have seen "short person is mob boss" like they do in The City of Spires, but that is actually a fairly common trope by itself, and has been applied to gnomes, goblins, kobolds and basically anything else that is small but meant to be threatening. See "Mr. Bigs" from Zootopia for another example.

It isn't a halfling trope, it is a small person trope.

 

[billd91]

Again, I have never seen this portrayal of halflings. Not once.

Ted Sandyman and the Sackville-Bagginses ring no bells?

 

[Mind of tempest]

Ted Sandyman and the Sackville-Bagginses ring no bells?

no, will you elaborate?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Good job no one is making you play one then. Personally the most snooze-festy race I can think of are D&D dwarves. I've never played one and am never likely to play one. But that doesn't mean I want to piss all over a significant number of people's fun by removing them from the game.

Note that I never said I want to "piss over" peoples fun. I also never claimed that someone was holding a gun to my head and threatening to kill me if I didn't play a halfling. So... I have no idea why either of those points were things you felt compelled to bring up.

What I did say in that part that you quoted is that "I'm small" is a poor character trait. If that is the only thing that defines halflings, then we have a dozen other races that are "I'm small" and also have something else going for them. The other things that halflings seem to have going for them is "I'm human"

And again, you are free to love that with all of your heart and play them every single day for the rest of your life. I don't care.

But, I do feel like it is fair of me to offer valid criticisms and ask "can we do better?" And personally, I've been wondering about the idea of focusing a bit more on Gnomes as Dungeons and Dragons continues. They are more than "I'm a small human" They are also curious, adventurous, community driven, and can both live in harmony with their natural surroundings and leaning into technology.

The unlikely hero from humble origins is a classic trope for a good reason and halflings take it and turn it up to 11. Do you not recognise it? Do you think the trope is a bad one? Or do you not see how halflings turn it up to 11?

In a setting where every race is special and awesome one not being is distinct.

Is something wrong with every race having something more than being human? I mean, I like humans, I think they are neat, but "I'm a small human" isn't exactly the most compelling pitch I've ever heard.

And, I do see the trope. I do enjoy the trope. Seen it played a lot. I've seen unlikely elven heroes. Unlikely Dwarven Heroes. Unlikely Human Heroes. Unlikely Gnome heroes. Unlikely Minotaur heroes.

I don't see a need for a race to "turn it up to 11" on the face of "we are unlikely to be heroes". That just seems... like saying we want the blandest most safe race possible, because then we can subvert that expectation. That is kind of backwards thinking isn't it? You don't make a race of "non-heroes" for the purpose of making them the best "unlikely hero" in a game. That is designing solely for the trope, and it makes them quite pointless to people who are fine with the trope only going up to 10.

There are different types of fighting. And different types of bravery. If you think that it doesn't take bravery to welcome the Dark Lord and his rotting undead horde warmly with a cheerful party you've not imagined it.

Feel free to keep taking cheap shots at my imagination. It really doesn't endear me to want to continue this discussion in anyway.

I didn't say anything about it not taking bravery. However, when on one hand you are told that they are fiercely loyal and will fight like mad to defend their homes, and on the other hand you are told that when their homes are being threatened they will throw a welcome party with cake for the agressors... I find it understandable to say that those two images are highly contradictory.

Neither does breathing or eating. Let's declare all races that use bathrooms redundant!

Halflings start with little power then turn human traits up to 11.

Hyperbole isn't amusing in this instance. And, I'm not seeing how halflings turn all human traits up to 11. They only seem to turn up the bucolic, pastoral lifestyle. And I don't think they even bring that up to 11.

They don't turn up the industriousness of humanity. The cleverness. The adaptability.

Are explicitly out matched. And why not? Some people find it fun and something they want to play up. Others want to be small rogues. Both are good.

Why are you trying to police the fun of others?

I'm not policing anything, you seem to be the one who is outcrying and upset that I don't fall over myself to love halflings.

You want to be outmatched? Sure, that can be fun. How come you can't be outmatched as a human or a Goblin? Small rogues? Again, what is wrong with gnomes and goblins and kobolds? All of them can be small rogues.

Again, I'm not saying that you can't like halflings. But, it seems like your argument against them being fairly redundant is that they do the thing that other races can do. And no, I'm not saying every race has to be 100% unique with no overlap whatsoever. But Halflings really seem to have nothing. I looked for lore, and found nothing in the most popular setting in the game. It literally stated they have no unique culture. They have no history that has any importance as far as I can tell. Their most defining trait that everyone seems to point to is that they are commoners... which is something that is true for everyone who isn't an adventurer or a noble, isn't it?

Weird. Dwarves are normally fairly unwelcoming IME and elves often sneer a little and can be painfully polite.

A lot of dwarves I've encountered have been treated like Appalachian miners. They don't trust you at first because you are an outsider, but once they invite you to drink and eat together they are partying all over themselves and perfectly fine to have a lark together.

Few elf villages I've been to have been presented like hippy communes. Everyone is friendly and doing art and just going about life and going with the flow.

In world building but not PC actions at the table. But long term world building is often silly anyway.

This entire discussion is about world building. Long term world building isn't a term I'm familiar with, but calling it silly seems like an overstatement.

We don't really care about PC actions at the table nearly as much as we do worldbuilding. Because PCs are going to do whatever they want.