Your issue with halflings is a lore issue. My issue issue with chronomancers is a mechanics issue, in that I don't trust D&DWiki to produce something that is balanced. I mean, I've read unbalanced backgrounds from that site. Do you think lore and mechanics are the same thing? Do you think they can be rewritten in the same manner?
And even if we are to assume that is decently balanced and thus only focus on lore, there's a big difference between the lore of a race of everyman people and introducing time-travel into a fantasy game.
So, your defense of your position that I should just "homebrew it" and that excuses any lacks in the writing is that homebrewing lore is different from homebrewing mechanics?
Homebrewing lore can be quite complicated and hard to do, so I really don't think they are different enough for any bad lore to be excusable but bad mechanics aren't.
Yes, I am assuming that. You don't even know what the halflings' actual abilities are: you seem to think they are immune to fear and never lose a die roll because they're so lucky. You can't figure out what Nimble means. That definitely seems to me like you've never actually tried to do anything with them.
So, you are taking my literal reading of the lore from the books and from people's descriptions, and using that to assume that I don't understand the mechanics.
Well, congrats, you have assumed completely incorrectly. You are massively off-base, and the fact that yet again you are accusing me of not knowing what the word nimble means, when I heavily demonstrated the problem with the Halfling Nimbleness ability (the gelatinous cube they can move through, even in an open field) and how it does not in fact seem to represent "nimbleness" as you seem to imply.
The chapter in the PH divides races into "Common" and "Uncommon." Not "Sociopolitically Important" and "Non-Contributive."
There are lots of halflings. They just don't necessarily have a major part the Grand Scheme of things.
And you haven't said why that's a bad thing. Only that you find that boring, which is completely subjective.
Actually, I have said it. You just weren't listening.
IT is bad because halflings are completely disconnected from the world. They may be in every human city, but they fulfill all the roles that humans do within those cities, and if you find a halfling only area... it is a complete tonal shift from the rest of the world.
Oh, so to make them palatable to you, you would change an important part of their lore and biology that makes them distinct from other races. And not only that, you would make everyone else play with your preferred lore (I like their lack of emotions, and I'm not seeing anything saying "it's holy to be stupid"), instead of just rewriting them for your games. That's not rewriting them to be not-evil, like what's actually needed for orcs and goblins. That's just making them to your tastes.
If I had unlimited power to rewrite lizardfolk, yes I would remove the lore that venerates stupidity and says that intelligence is a curse upon their race. Look at their creation myth, the story of Kecuala and Semuanya. Seems like it was Greyhawk Lore, but they still mention Semuanya as the diety for the Lizardfolk. Their fall from being a single divine being came about solely because they thought too much, and Semuanya is waiting for them to stop being so intelligent so that they can became their mate again.
And, yes, I would remove the idea that they do not feel any emotions. I feel like it is in the same category as the Kenku Mimicry, a fine idea for the lore, but in practice at the table, it is a mess. I'd give them a more stunted emotional response, similar to how the yuan-ti are presented, making them incredibly practically minded and survival oriented, but not completely emotionless.
Of course, that would be a discussion for the Lizardfolk thread, not the halfling thread.
So add races more to the Common Races section. Nobody is saying you can't (well, WotC might be saying that). I doubt there's any rule saying that you can only have four Common Races in a world. As far as I know, this is the only edition where they even did that sort of division in the PH.
It might be the only edition, and I'd love if WoTC got rid of that division. But I'm not going to try and pretend it doesn't exist, or that it doesn't affect the game as a whole.
And in comparison to a dwarf hall?
About the same if I look at the dwarven hall in Mordenkainen's.
"It hit with a clap of thunder." I wonder if there was a spell involved there.
But sure. One story written for a player book and designed to give players inspiration for telling their own stories means the entire race are bad lorekeepers. Sure.
Doesn't say he cast a spell. And yes, the only example of an actual, canonical story for halflings is basically a tall tale with elements that are not 100% factual. So, your proposition that their tales would never be embellished at all in any way and therefore would keep important details, because they aren't tall tales.... crumbles to dust. Because the only canonical example we have stands in direct opposition to your assertion.
Yes you did. You said their god made them good crafters ("But it is baked into them by their creator deity to create exceptional things."). They didn't develop those skills on their own. They had them preprogrammed in by Moradin.
I'm going to stop this one right here because you've touched upon a nerve of mine when it comes to my feelings on real world religion.
I phrased that poorly then. I simply meant the desire to create is put in them by Moradin and their devotion to him. My apologies, I was wrong in how I said that.
That's like saying that because religion is important to dwarfs it doesn't make them a religious race.
But... they are a very religious race. And religion being important = religious. But storytelling =/= lorekeeping.
That's a very narrow definition of adventurer that assumes all adventures must end in violence. The actual
dictionary definition of adventurer says "one who seeks danger
or exciting experiences
." Halflings definitely do the latter.
No, my defintion does not assume that the adventure will end in violence.
Used for the same thing. They are reliable to their group. It doesn't matter if they run in the face of danger.
Yes it does.
Someone who goes around killing others while also giving some money to the poor isn't heroic.
But giving money to the poor is a heroic trait. A good trait.
Or with being evil and not giving up and surrendering to greater forces. We're just more likely to call that bloodthirsty than brave.
And yet that isn't the name of the trope, and that isn't the impression that is being given. There is a difference between not surrendering because you want to kill more people and not surrendering do to your ideals.
CLEARLY you think that interesting = dark or edgy or violent. CLEARLY you can't fathom that anyone could like a people who are nice.
And you are wrong, and I'm getting sick of having to defend myself, when I have done so repeatedly. If I can't even fathom anyone liking a nice person, then why do I like gnomes and firbolgs so much?
In the real world, wearing some types of clothing or hairstyles may be considered cultural misappropriation, depending on who's wearing what.
In D&D world, very often different cultures have distinct clothing styles, to the point it's unusual to see anyone outside of that culture wearing those clothes. For instance, you don't see many non-drow wearing spider silk.
Yes, culture and clothing are very often intertwined.
Intertwined yes, a defining trait that that I'm going to hold up for why the culture matters? No.
You're kidding, right? It means they're whimsical, not lolrandom.
No, whimsical is not chaotic.
Pretty sure "elves" and "capricious" are closely-knit concepts to many, many people.
Might be, but they are also not closely related concepts to many people.
It didn't have much lore, which is what I said. One of the reasons I and I know a lot of other people don't like the Realms is it has too much lore.
And so clearly there is a middle ground between too much and not enough.
The story of Yondalla begins at the dawn of the world, when halflings were timid wanderers, scraping out a meager existence. The goddess Yondalla took note of them and decided to adopt the halflings as her people. She was a strong leader with a vision for her people, and she dedicated her life to gathering them together and protecting them. Over time, she elevated to godhood those halflings who were the most adept at the skills halflings needed to survive. Those legendary halflings comprise the rest of the pantheon.
Yondalla created the first halfling villages and showed the people how to build, plant, and harvest. She knew that the bounty of a halfling village would be tempting plunder for any brigand or monster, so she used her powers to conceal their homes from easy discovery, blending them into the landscape so that most travelers would pass by without a second glance. (MTF)
Adopted children are as real and important as bio-children. And found family can be as close as, or closer than, bio-families. Right?
But your insistence on having some story where a particular god makes them for presumably an important reason is the main reason why having all that oh-so-important lore isn't actually a good thing when it's made generic instead of setting-specific. What's the lore for dwarfs or elves if you decide to play in a world that doesn't have Moradin in it? It keeps people from wanting to make their own unique worlds with unique religions and beliefs and unique cultures. No, you have to have the racial gods and racial enemies.
Which is the nice thing about halflings. You may call them lore-light, but the amount of lore they have is perfect for setting them wherever you like with as few or many changes as you want them to have.
My insistence is because just about every single race in the forgotten realms has a story of where they came from. Whether it is from the creator races, or the illithid, or gods, or anything else. Every major race has a point that says "this is how they came to be"
Except halflings. I'll be fair and also say that Goblinoids don't, which is really weird. It would be amusing if goblins and halflings were related, but that would be adding something that doesn't exist.
Dwarves
Elves
Genasi
Teiflings
Aasimar
Lizardfolk
Tabaxi
Goliaths
Firbolgs
Gnomes
Kobolds
Drow
Duergar
Gith
Dragonborn
And on and on.
In my opinion, the PH should have no lore on the races. Nothing about their history. No racial enemies. It should describe what their life is like and what their general mindset is like. Everything else should be setting-specific. Or if it's included in the PH, it should be written as "In the Realms, elves are X. In Eberron, elves are Y. In Dark Sun, elves are Z."
You are welcome to your opinion. I feel like taking that all out would be a mistake.
(Also: what's the human origin myth?)
I've said this a few times, but Humans are the exception. Because they are also the race of people that are playing this game. And making this game. And so the designers have very firmly refused to state such things for humanity.
Then you can do that with anything, if you like. A old member of an different ancient race. Someone who was awoken from magical slumber or raised from the dead after centuries had passed. Someone who was possessed by the god of meta-knowledge. Someone who time-traveled, perhaps using that homebrew chronomancer class. Someone who is a member of a shorter-lived race who simply stopped aging one day for reasons known or unknown (I mean, if you want to play a thousand-year-old elf who's still only 3rd level, then you can play a thousand-year-old human who's still only 3rd level as well). A necromancer with a collection of skulls and ready access to the speak with dead spell. An ancient dragon that's been true polymorphed into a halfling and is desperate to get back to their original self, but so far all attempts have failed (I have something similar for an upcoming character, but not so glamorous).
If the world was fairly low-magic or rare-magic, then being an ancient elf might be truly unique. In typical D&D, there's a ton of options to accomplish the exact same thing.
Okay, but as you are listing option after option after option... but that doesn't make the ancient elf not a trope, not a thing that is commonly done, and not a point of their existance as a race. Just because people can speak to the dead doesn't mean speaking to an ancient living being is the exact same.
I just try to keep my meta-knowledge to myself. As do the others at my table. It led to an amusing time when we were playing Icewind Dale and we were all saying variants of "Who is this "Drizzt" of which you speak? I have not heard of this individual," while giggling like loons.
Pfft. Nice.
So this is OK to homebrew, but it's not OK to homebrew being lorekeepers or great chefs.
sigh
I never said it was BAD to homebrew halflings being lorekeepers. I said that it WAS HOMEBREW. As in, it isn't what is written about them right now. Their lore doesn't state it in the book at this moment. Does that mean that it is wrong to homebrew it?
NO! So, kindly stop making accusations to try and shame me out of my arguments.
As someone who's been dealing chronic depression for most of my life, I strongly disagree.
Tropes don't cover 100% of every real life situation.
But you need to keep pushing those goalposts even further. I get it.
By referencing the same picture and the same standard I've had this entire time? Wow, I didn't know staying in the same place was moving goalposts.
Dwarfs have a lifespan of about 350 years, not 800. Even elves don't normally live 800 years. Also, that Crazy Horse monument has taken decades, most of which was by a single individual. You show me a dwarf statue of that size made by a single dwarf and I'll be impressed.
And yes, dwarfs make awesome things. That doesn't mean that the world would be vastly different if you didn't include them. Other races would make equally awesome things instead.
They could, but the point of dwarves is that they are the ones making these awesome things. Sadly, they don't have a gallery of dwarven statues with the sculptors named attached, so I can't show you a dwarf doing that exact same thing or more. I can only tell you that... yeah, it totally sounds like something a dwarf would do.
No, there are
lots. And other amazing wonders.
Cool. Like I said, I know real life humans are amazing. That doesn't change anything.
They get a bonus to Dexterity and wood elves are really good at hiding. They would make good rogues. In fact, even though people think of elves as being good spellcasters, they're really specced for roguing. Or maybe rangering.
Mechanically good =/= expected trope
On Athas, elves are a nomadic race of herders, raiders, peddlers, and thieves. The dunes and steppes of Athas are home to thousands of tribes of nomadic elves. While each tribe is very different culturally, the elves within them remain a race of long-limbed sprinters given to theft, raiding, and...
darksun.fandom.com
But again, you're proving my point: you're so caught up in Realms/Greyhawk lore that you can't even seem to understand that the races could be different.
Or maybe, just maybe, as I keep repeating myself. I'm looking to the generic lore (which matches FR and Greyhawk) and not accounting for the lore that specifically breaks everything on purpose.
I mean, I literally say that I was told elves are thieves in darksun, and you post the elf entry for darksun that mentions that they are thieves, then accuse me of not even understanding that races can be different in different settings... like elves being theives in darksun, the literal example I gave myself.
I wonder if giving an example of a race being different in darksun was somehow a completel fluke, since I can't even comprehend the possibilty of a race being different in a setting like darksun.
Yes, and? Why is it a bad thing to not have cookie-cutter races?
It isn't. But to break a mold, the mold most first exist. And the thing I have an issue with is the mold. As you keep waving your arms and screaming "but someone broke the mold" you are missing that that isn't the point, since I'm talking about the mold that was there to be broken.
And yet they have unique gods. The only human god that halflings ever seem to care about is Tymora.
I've seen more than that.
So you are right and everyone else has been wrong for decades now.
Is there a point to talking to you about this?
You seemed to narrow in on it as some sort of point to prove me wrong, and if you want to phrase it that way feel free. But I'm just pointing out that within the context I laid out, you did not prove me wrong. Unless you want to claim that Lolth is a human goddess.
How do you portray any other person succeeding on a save, ability check, or attack roll? If a PC has an ability to affect the roll of the die from any other means--such as by adding bardic inspiration, or using a diviner's die--how do you portray that?
Then do the exact same thing with the halfling.
Depends on exactly what happens. Not sure I want to cover every single possible save and skill and attack and every single possible modifer to those things.
And, again, if halflings are supposed to be lucky, and they just... succeed like everyone else. Then they don't seem to be lucky.
I guess those people haven't actually read the text, then.
So, I'm just supposed to ignore peoples positions because you don't like them?
Yes, and that's up to them, if they want to.
So, how am I supposed to show that halflings are the brave race is no one else is acting scared and everyone is brave?
I mean, clearly the issue is that I don't understand what the word "brave" means like you said, not that it is actually difficult to show that you are unusually brave when everyone else is also brave.
It's not even remotely difficult to play or portray.
Step One: Get players to think about things that might frighten their PCs. "I'm scared of bugs" is an example.
Step Two: Ask players to portray that fear. If necessary, assure them that portraying that fear is for RP purposes and won't cause them a mechanical penalty.
Step Three: Profit. By having a more RP-intensive game.
So... if I'm playing with a halfling, I need to go out of my way to have personal fears for every player. That way that specific player can RP fear when I put that element in. And then the Halfling doesn't have to because they won't be scared? Or will they also RP fear... making them the exact same as everyone else...
Players are supposed to play their characters and describe what and how their characters are doing. If they choose to not describe how they get past something, that's up to them. If you want to have your game be more than just "I hit and do 8 damage" then it's up to you to encourage them to describe how they do things.
So, I am supposed to tell the players to describe it for me. That's how
I am supposed show it in the world. Make the players do it instead.
Nothing like succeeding by passing the buck
Don't say ridiculous things then
