Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

[Gaius]

I cannot believe all the stir this prestige class has caused. Ever since the release of 3rd edition, one of the principle complaints, among others, was that multiclassed spellcasters sucked. A level 20 character who split his advancement equally between cleric and wizard levels is at a severe handicap when compared to other 20th level spellcasters who maintained a single class. No question about it.

So the Mystic Theurge seems to be the solution. Given that this is a revision of 3rd edition and not a brand new 4th edition, it is reasonable to expect that multiclassing rules are going to remain intact as is. So the best way to fix the problem of multiclassing spellcasters, without a total revamp to the existing system, is to make a prestige class "patch." Like the Mystic Theurge.

I am firmly in the camp that believes that this class is not overpowered. Three lost levels of spell advancement is not a small thing. A topped out Mystic Theurge, let's say Cleric 3/Wizard 7/Mystic Theurge 10, has 1 base slot for 9th level spells. The straight Wizard 20 or Wizard 10/Incantrix 10, or whatever "pure" arcane caster you want, has a base of 4 slots for 9th level spells. Same is true of previous levels. The Mystic Theurge will have versatility at the expense of sheer power.

This prestige class has been debuted for all of a day now and already the armchair game designers are implementing their fixes. Talk about some hypocricy there. I mean, you've got people complaining, "Did they even playtest this thing!?" who then turn around and say, "This is what needs to be fixed!" All in the span of one day. I mean, did they even playtest this thing!?

One of the most prominent changes seems to be making the prerequisites more stringent. Such as requiring the ability to cast 3rd level arcane and divine spells. I'm sorry, but are you crazy? A 10th level character, 5 levels each in Wizard and Cleric, is casting third level spells while his peers are whipping out the 5th level guns. At 11th level, with your one level of Mystic Theurge, you're still pumping out third level spells while your 11th level Wizard pal is stepping up to sixth level spells. Who would want to sacrifice firepower like that just to have access to both arcane and divine spells? As it is, I think that requiring second level spells is the right prerequisite.

Basically, what you have here is a rather vanilla prestige class that allows Wizards to cast divine spells with only a slight dropoff in their arcane abilities. A balanced dropoff. This seems to me to be what people have wanted all along, but now that it's here, people can't seem to stop complaining.

Of course, this is to say nothing of actually making a character rather than a stat-block. Once you start considering something more than min-maxing, the prestige class becomes even more balanced. I mean, not many people are going to be able to justify their character being a dual-spellcaster like this. Best I can see would be those who follow gods of magic. Or, if you're set in the Scarred Lands, maybe a Druid/Sorceror. But even then, the Mystic Theurge sucks for Druids. So there goes that.

All in all, I like the Mystic Theurge and find it to be pretty balanced, at least on the surface. Of course, I, like everyone else, haven't had a chance to playtest it nor am I privy to the full 3.5E context in which this character has been crafted. So reserve judgement until you've got all the "facts" of the matter.

Gaius

 

[heirodule]

Andy collins defends it in this thread

on his boards:

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm10.showMessage?topicID=126.topic

One of the problems identified in 3rd Edition is the inequality of multiclassing options. While combos of melee-type classes are pretty attractive (since BAB, the fighter's holy grail, continues to increase regardless of the class taken), any spellcaster wishing to multiclass takes a dramatic hit on his spellcasting power. Cool archetypes from past versions of the games--fighter/wizards, cleric/wizards, and the like--were kicked in the groin (repeatedly).

The mystic theurge is part of a dedicated approach in 3.5 to address that problem. In this case, the prestige class presents a viable road for the character who wants to pursue two different magical paths, without having to forgo any hope of keeping up with his friends.

Compare the spellcasting power of a mystic theurge to a single-classed character at various levels, and you'll see that the theurge character merely trades power for versatility.

To qualify, the character must be Clr3/Wiz3 or thereabouts. This character is dramatically weaker than either a Clr6 or a Wiz6. He doesn't have access to 3rd-level spells (unlike the 6th-level caster). At any given character level below 20th, the theurge will either be one or two spell levels behind the single-classed character. That's a *huge* disadvantage.

Don't overlook the other big disadvantage: His caster level is 3 below the single-classed character, which means it's tougher to bypass spell resistance, his spells are easier to dispel, and his spells simply have less effect overall. He'll *never* dig out of this hole.

Another hidden problem is that the character has one extra mental ability score to max out. Most spellcasters can get away with putting their 2nd-best ability into Dex or Con, but not this guy. To take full advantage of his spellcasting power, he'll need to keep two mental stats as high as possible. Not many wizards like "wasting" a high stat in Wisdom, and ditto for clerics and Intelligence.

Oh, and he also gives up the special abilities of the class. No more turning or bonus feats, thanks!

One level later, the character has the spellcasting power of a Clr4/Wiz4. (Remember, though, he's still only a 7th-level character, with a 7th-level character's hp, bab, saves, and so forth). He's still only casting 2nd-level spells, while the single-classed character is chucking around 4th-level spells.

Check in again at character level 10. The Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge4 now has 4th-level spells in two classes, compared to the Clr10 or Wiz10 who's throwing flame strikes or walls of force.

At level 16, the Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge10 has one or two 7th-level spells in two classes, but the single-classed character has three or maybe even four 8th-level spells.

At level 20, the theurge might have continued to split his caster levels (becoming a Clr5/Wiz5/Theurge10). This gives him 8th-level spells in two classes.

Alternatively, he might have advanced only one class (becoming a Clr7/Wiz3/Theurge10 or Clr3/Wiz7/Theurge10). That gives him a couple of 9th-level spells (compared to the five or more of a 20th-level single-classed caster).

 

[haiiro]

At first glance, I also thought this PrC looked overpowered. After reading through this thread and thinking about the issues at hand, I'm not so sure. I lean towards the MT being no more overpowered than the arcane trickster or incantatrix -- i.e., too much for some campaigns, just fine for others.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in all of the comparisons brought up so far is the difference between a pure sorcerer and a sorcerer/cleric/MT -- as opposed to the difference between a pure wizard and a wizard/cleric/MT, which has been covered pretty well.

The PHB sorcerer gets the worst BAB, HD, # of skill points and saves (one good one), along with a fairly poor skill list (too few CHA skills) -- just like the wizard and MT, in other words. Unlike the wizard, however, he gets only one special ability: his familiar. It seems like the sorcerer has a lot more to gain from taking MT levels than the wizard does, as he doesn't miss out on any bonus feats.

In any case, the MT class makes the idea of playing a multiclassed arcane/divine caster without this PrC fairly pointless -- or at least moreso than it already is, given how much both classes lose in that equation.

As far as Psion's (fairly accurate) comment that the PrC is boring, I'd say it's no more boring than the sorcerer -- and, like the sorcerer, I think the concept is quite neat.

IMO, the "wait and see" attitude makes the most sense -- trying to balance a 3.5e PrC against 3.0e classes is interesting, but potentially not all that accurate.

 

[mearls]

Re: Re: Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

Sorry, Mike, you are incorrect. Per Skip.

Ah, I figured that's where that came from. Needless to say, I don't agree with that ruling. The wizard's bonus spells are one of the few ways you can differentiate the core wizard from PrCs in terms of resources and power. As anyone who has played a wizard can tell you, scribing scrolls sucks down gp pretty quickly.

From a design standpoint, spellcaster PrCs are completely wonky. If you hose the spellcaster's ability progression, you essentially create a character that is designed to be worse at its core competency. For instance, you don't find many fighter or rogue prestige classes that make those classes worse in combat or at stealth. OTOH, if you keep the progression in place you're stuck with a character that is simply better than a core class. This ties back into the SR system and the reliance on binary save situations (ie, save or die) at high levels, neither of which I like all that much.

(I really, really don't like SR. It's too binary. I've toyed with a system similar to DR but haven't had the free time to really tinker with it.)

I've thought about building a system of limited spell advancement, but even those don't work well. They fall into the classic "I'm good at what I do, bad at what I don't" trap.

 

[Remathilis]

Haiiro wrote

In any case, the MT class makes the idea of playing a multiclassed arcane/divine caster without this PrC fairly pointless -- or at least moreso than it already is, given how much both classes lose in that equation.

Is this any more different than a fighter/wizard without spellsword or a wizard/rogue without arcane trickster? Compare:

fighter 2/wizard 3/Spellsword 10 vs. fighter 7/wizard 8
rogue 4/wizard 5/arcane trickster 10 vs. rogue 9/wiz 10
wizard 3/cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 vs wizard 8/cleric 8

My problem is that it doesn't seem balance well vs. True Necromancer or Geomancer (the previous caster/caster classes) but then again, they get some amazing abilities to compensate for 5th level magic, while MT is pure casting at the cost of all other things.

I'll wait til the 3.5 books are in my hot little hands before finalizing judgement.

 

[Eldorian]

When I first read the class, I thought it was too much, but after reading through the examples of this character at various character levels, it doesn't seem that bad. If it's epic progression doesn't add 2 caster levels per level, then the class might be pretty balanced even into high levels. It's sort of making me rethink my prestige class http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46542

perhaps full progression is in order?

Eldorian Antar

 

[Remathilis]

Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge PrC - They've got to be kidding!

From a design standpoint, spellcaster PrCs are completely wonky. If you hose the spellcaster's ability progression, you essentially create a character that is designed to be worse at its core competency. For instance, you don't find many fighter or rogue prestige classes that make those classes worse in combat or at stealth. OTOH, if you keep the progression in place you're stuck with a character that is simply better than a core class. This ties back into the SR system and the reliance on binary save situations (ie, save or die) at high levels, neither of which I like all that much.

Alot of rogue PrC's only give 6 skill points, such as Thief-Acrobat, Outlaw of the Crimson Road, or Shadowdancer. This, for a class that's meat-and-potatoes is skill points, usually means you loose some of your skill versatility.

However, I cocur on fighter PrCs, most in SnF give full BAB, so fighters loose nothing (save bonus feats) to PrC.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It seems to me that a spellcaster with access to, say, 1st through 5th level spells is going to be fairly balanced with a caster with oodles of 1st through 3rd level spells.

The latter will have better selection, true. But I don't see having an extra Invisibility Purge & Haste handy to be such a great trade for a Raise Dead or Wall of Force.

I look for spells that allow qualitatively new tactics and strategies. Lots of spell levels is not a substitute from that POV.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Having read this thread, I think this PrC sounds OK. That trade off is much more of a disadvantage than it seems initially.

Funnily enough, I think this isn't a munchkin's dream, it's actually more suited to someone who knows how to get the most out of limited power. Want to blast stuff? Don't take this class. Want to mix and match the utility spells? Go right ahead.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just so you know:

If you take this as a sorceror/cleric, you will NEVER get 9th level spells. Sorcerors are significantly WORSE to multiclass into this than wizards - the benefit of casting lots of spells per day is lost, and the idea of versatility is relatively incompatible with a sorceror.