Mystic Theurge too good or not?

[Number47]

I will take that as confirmation of a suspicion of mine – namely, that the hour/level buffs are going to be knocked down in duration.

 

[AuraSeer]

It would be cool, if the Theurge could cast two spells a round, but he can't. So he has a whole bunch of lower-leveled spells. Big deal. Probably won't help much against that dragon.

Sure it will, because he doesn't use those slots for attack spells. He buffs his entire party with bull's strength, remove fear, protection from elements, death ward, spell resistance, hero's feast, and every other beneficial cleric spell he can think of. That's effectively free, because it doesn't use up any of his arcane slots. All his wizard spells are still available for for offensive use.

The theurge has a little less combat power than the wizard does, but far greater flexibility. It would be weaker for a one-on-one arena situation, but IMO it appears potentially unbalancing for an actual campaign.

Again, though, there's little point arguing this before the books are even released. We can't know its balance for sure until we use it in an actual campaign with the rest of the 3.5 rules. No one has done that yet (except the playtesters, and they aren't talking).

 

[WattsHumphrey]

It's all about what level you set the character at. At lower levels, the loss of spellcasting for anybody will hurt.

But after making a high level (18) Theurge, I can definitely say that I will NEVER, EVER allow the class as a PC in one of my campaigns. I wiped the floor with a party of eight adventurers of average level 16ish. He was nearly unequipped at the time.

Say what you wish about the class. I've seen it at high levels in action, and I can't say it's a good idea at all. At low levels, it might be allowable, but on the off chance that a character might be played into their high teens, I'm nixing the class.

 

[LokiDR]

I built a Nec 3, Clr 3, Thurge 10, True Necro 2 to test this concept. I baned evoke. He was facing, without any real help from minions, a party of 7, APL 13.5. Watts helped with the build. We use 3.0 haste.

The necromancer won. Alot. He would have TPK'd if two members of the party hadn't been flying and managed to dispell his fly. His deadliest form was Polymorphed-fire giant, Divine favored, double empowered bull's str, improved invis, divine powered, rightous might, and Transformed. BAB 25 for starters. He beat them with a stick, it was almost funny.

When the necromancer was throwing spells, it was at the rate of 6/round. Imbue familar, quicken spell, and share spell-haste with familar. He ran out of offensive spells very quickly, but I had plenty to choose from.

This is compared to a wizard who could time stop and meteror swarm.

Another abuse of Thurge I have heard is a twelveth thurge getting create rod and creating the meta-magic rods. How sick quickening 3 spells a day for free? I don't know, but that character would have a lot of low level spells to metamagic.

I am still up in the air. What I do know is that dispel checks against the necromancer took WAY too long.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even if I already explained it elsewhere:
A Mystic Theurge has more spells per day (at least at the spell levels he has access to) than a Sorcerer of equal level (if you assume Cleric/Wizard Combo, not Cleric/Sorcerer), and is behind 1 spell level in comparison. He gains bonus spells from 2 different abilities, which make some things easier (having Int20/Wis20 is easier than Int30, which probably gives you about the same amount of lower level bonus spells), and he can easily use any kind of spellcompletion device (only a few spells are Bard, Druid or Paladin only).

The Dispelling thing is a nice idea, but remember: Instead of a Dispel Magic, most Wizards could also cast a Fireball or Lightning Bolt (which threatens a whole party), and instead of a Greater Dispelling he could cast Disintegrate (which has a fair chance to kill any character, especially with Murphy`s Law )
And then you still have to roll to beat the 11+caster level. And if the MT knows how to work within a team (most should do), he will not be the only one who benefits from his many low level buffs.
An area affected Dispel will not catch everybody, and especially not all spells.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Chun-tzu]

Sure it will, because he doesn't use those slots for attack spells. He buffs his entire party with bull's strength, remove fear, protection from elements, death ward, spell resistance, hero's feast, and every other beneficial cleric spell he can think of. That's effectively free, because it doesn't use up any of his arcane slots. All his wizard spells are still available for for offensive use.

So a Mystic Theurge offers more buffs than a Wizard or Cleric. Is that necessarily overpowered, or is it necessarily a bad thing? No. Buffs have their limits. They can be dispelled. They have time limits. They're a limited resource. They take time to prepare and use.

The usefulness of buffs will vary from game to game, from party to party, from situation to situation, from fight to fight. How often does the party have time to buff up before a fight? That's a question that's almost completely in the power of the DM. How often does the party know in advance what they're facing, and what spells they _really_ should have used to protect themselves against the enemy? Again, the DM has considerable control over the situation.

More buffs can be more fun for the game. A party that's short on buffs will likely see those going to the Fighter, because that's smart strategy. Except that means the Ranger and the Rogue get to suck even more now, compared to the Fighter. Now everyone gets a buff. Is that necessarily so bad?

People who hate the Theurge argue that it hardly pays any cost in offensive power. I disagree, there is a considerable cost, in terms of highest level spell that can be cast, number of high level spells, save DC, ability to penetrate SR, and other potential losses from not taking another PrC.

The theurge has a little less combat power than the wizard does, but far greater flexibility. It would be weaker for a one-on-one arena situation, but IMO it appears potentially unbalancing for an actual campaign.

Yes, it is potentially unbalancing for some campaigns. I'd say the same about several spellcaster PrCs. But a DM who understands the limitations of the character, and takes those into consideration, will probably (IMHO) not have a problem with the Theurge. The Theurge may be overpowered, but it's certainly not broken.

 

[Chun-tzu]

But after making a high level (18) Theurge, I can definitely say that I will NEVER, EVER allow the class as a PC in one of my campaigns. I wiped the floor with a party of eight adventurers of average level 16ish. He was nearly unequipped at the time.

Originally posted by LokiDR
I built a Nec 3, Clr 3, Thurge 10, True Necro 2 to test this concept. I baned evoke. He was facing, without any real help from minions, a party of 7, APL 13.5. Watts helped with the build. We use 3.0 haste.

This is not a good test of how balanced a character class is. There are tons of factors involved here, including some that are extremely difficult to quantify (like what kind of tactics were used, how experienced are the players on both sides with high-level characters and tactics, what limits are used, what magic items are involved). Even though this is one character against a party, it's an arena-style situation.

But single fight situations strongly favor any spellcasting type class. You can dump everything you've got, and don't need to worry about later on. You guys used 3.0 Haste, which gives the Theurge a HUGE advantage that it WON'T have in 3.5 (when Haste is changed).

I agree that you've offered _some_ evidence that the Theurge may be overpowered. This in no way really takes the place of actually playing the class in an actual campaign, though.

 

[Fenes 2]

IMC, with relatively few magic items and few combats, a mythic theurge is clearly overpowered due to his high number of utility and buff spells. I will ban it for sure.

 

[Chun-tzu]

IMC, with relatively few magic items and few combats, a mythic theurge is clearly overpowered due to his high number of utility and buff spells. I will ban it for sure.

A Theurge will be powerful in a game with few magic items.

But in a game with relatively little combat, he's more at a disadvantage. His advantage over a straight Wizard is more spells. If the Wizard never runs out, though, those extra spells are no real advantage.

 

[Numion]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge too good or not?

Better than the above.

Wizard(5)/Red Wizard(8)/Archmage(3).

Total Spellpower +10 (the Archmage's Spellpwoer currently states it specifically stacks with ANY spellpower bonus form ANY source). Which means, SR penetration checks are 1d20+26 for this fellow ... or 1d20+13 for the Wiz(3)/Cler(3)/Theurge(10).

Total spell power +10? Hmm.. a 16th level spellcaster. He's paid for the Archmages spell power +1 with a 5th level slot, check, +2 with a 7th level slot, check, and for the spell power +3 with a, um, 9th level slot? Does not compute, since 16th level casters have no 9th level slots.